file Terminology suggestion "Strike: Flee"

10 Oct 2018 00:19 #91113 by Ke.
The current term "Strike: Combat Ends" is misleading since it doesn't end combat — we just skip to the end of the round. Using another term would help with the rulebook and cause less confusion to new players.

Here is the entry in the current rulebook:

Combat Ends.
This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike, and it ends combat before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Combat ends is effective at any range.


The red bit is plainly wrong; because it doesn't do that. Here's a possible alternative:

Strike: Flee.
This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike. A Flee strike skips to the end of a round of combat (past the press step) before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Flee strikes are effective at any range.


Some what left field; just looking at things from the perspective of a new player.

Longer term thinking.
The following user(s) said Thank You: self biased, DanielG

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10 Oct 2018 02:09 - 10 Oct 2018 03:05 #91114 by DanielG
Bump!

Edit:

The phrase "This effect ends combat immediately" was REALLY confusing while learning the game, more so when interacting with Psyche! and Tate of Vitae.

Until recently, I thought playing Psyche! or Taste of Vitae was an illegal move when a vampire "Strike: Combat Ends". My understanding, at that time, was that combat was over and since combat cards can only be played during combat, the window for Taste of Vitae / Psyche! was closed. By this (wrong) logic, "Combat End" effects were functionally an "Action ends" effect, but for combat. An acting vampire cannot play Freak Drive after "action ends" because Action Modifiers can only be played during an action.

Side Note: New round structure - OPTION B - we'd like your feedback!

Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but...

I agree with option B.

8 months ago, I thought the Press and End-of-Round step were one and the same. The rulebook (old), had no indication of steps outside of the basic: maneuver, strike, press (with the exception of strike resolution and additional strikes). I think combining these two steps (press and end-of-round) into one will streamline combat and help new players inmensely.

Regards

QuimicoDan
Last edit: 10 Oct 2018 03:05 by DanielG. Reason: added comments

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10 Oct 2018 03:25 #91117 by self biased

Strike: Flee.
This type of strike is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with first strike. A Flee strike skips to the end of a round of combat (past the press step) before other strikes or other strike resolution effects are resolved. Flee strikes are effective at any range.


THIS PLEASE.

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10 Oct 2018 04:57 #91118 by LivesByProxy
Two things:

1) 'Flee' would be a keyword and would thus need to be looked up, whereas 'combat ends' does not seem to be a keyword but actually is (kinda?), and so could (does) cause someone to not look it up - until they run into timing problems like DanielG mentioned. 'Combat Ends' seems to be an effect spelled out in plain language, similar to 'attempts to block' or 'once per turn' or any number of other game phrases that aren't actually keywords. In other words 'Combat Ends' is a fairly intuitive phrase but the game rules run counter(-intuitive) to it.

2) 'Flee' doesn't make sense from a flavor / theme stand-point for some cards, whereas S:CE is neutral in tone. Flee means I'm running away, and this works with something like Earth Meld or Form of Mist, but not with Majesty or Stare Down.

As an aside, I think the cleanest thing to do would be to fit the current cards into the Maneuver-Strike-Press combat model. And frankly I don't understand why the Maneuver step is called 'Determine Range' step. We don't call the Strike step 'Fighting' step or the Press step 'Flight & Pursuit' step.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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10 Oct 2018 09:34 - 10 Oct 2018 09:35 #91124 by Bloodartist

The current term "Strike: Combat Ends" is misleading since it doesn't end combat — we just skip to the end of the round.


I disagree with this interpretation. Combat DOES end, its just that the round must logically end also if combat ends. Its not "merely skipping to end of round", cause then presses to continue could work.

End of round comes first, then combat ends. I dont see a reason to change this wording (even though I'm known to campaign for various erratas, this isn't one of them)

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 10 Oct 2018 09:35 by Bloodartist.

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10 Oct 2018 09:40 - 10 Oct 2018 09:41 #91125 by TwoRazorReign
Hit the pause button on introducing a new term for a second. Let’s review what the problem is. I see 2 problems. First problem is Strike: Combat Ends is misleading. The second problem is the rule book does not explain Strike: Combat Ends accurately.

I think problem 2 leads to problem 1 first and foremost, so fix problem 2 and problem 1 is likely to cease to exist.

Introducing a new term for something established in the game should be a last resort. The concern is that doing so will create more confusion than is necessary to make things understandable to new—and old—players. I cannot emphasize enough how disorienting this would be to old players.

Now, if the rulebook is clarified, and problem 1 still exists, then revisit possible terminology change to Strike: flee. But let’s clear up the rule book and detailed play summary first.
Last edit: 10 Oct 2018 09:41 by TwoRazorReign.
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