Striga/Maleficia

I think you're missing Pagan's point.

He knows how the cards are played but he doesn't know that from the rulebook.

Let's take Scobax as an example:
Scobax
Type: Reaction
Requires: Striga/Presence

 Reduce a bleed against you by 1.

[str] The acting minion gets -1 stealth. [str] is not a Discipline.

[STR] As [str] above, and the action ends immediately (unsuccessfully) unless the acting minion burns 1 blood or life.



The rulebook tells us that 
 is a discipline and follows the rules as quoted by Ankha above.



The rulebook does not tell him what Striga [str] or [STR] is so the card + rulebook does not tell him what to with this card.



His point is that a card + rulebook should tell you how it works e.g. like the rest of the cards he uses.

He's very clear that he knows that the Heirs to the Blood information on this website is NOT the rulebook



Whether or not you agree that it is necessary or not is a separate matter but that is what he is saying.

Pagan wrote:

Only if I have one of those master cards on a minion in play. Without one of the master cards there is a requirement indicated that does not exist in the game.

wrong. nowhere in the rulebook does it tell me is a discipline. if the only two cards I own are KoKo and Dread Gaze, I'll have no idea what is (all I know is that it's a requirement), but I'll assume it's a discipline similar to the thingy on my vampire's discipline bar.

and are discipline requirement symbols so I play them like all discipline requirement symbols in the game by following the rulebook. but the Golden Rule of VTES kicks in from the card text that they are not disciplines, which prevents me from playing them in any manner that specifies disciplines (effectively, any card that is not titled Striga or Maleficia).

Haze wrote:

wrong. nowhere in the rulebook does it tell me is a discipline. if the only two cards I own are KoKo and Dread Gaze, I'll have no idea what is (all I know is that it's a requirement), but I'll assume it's a discipline similar to the thingy on my vampire's discipline bar.

I was looking at the online rulebook and did not find the specific discipline symbols either. I wondered how I would know what these symbols stood for specifically (presence, potence, auspex), if I did not learn from others. I looked in a paper rulebook and found in the center a list of all the clan symbols and names, but no discipline symbols with the corresponding names. Then i saw one of those card inserts in a starter deck that shows all the symbols and the respective names. Would it be possible to add this into the rulebook on the VEKN site? Perhaps in the appendix? Is it needed?

Haze wrote:

Pagan wrote:

Only if I have one of those master cards on a minion in play. Without one of the master cards there is a requirement indicated that does not exist in the game.

wrong. nowhere in the rulebook does it tell me is a discipline. if the only two cards I own are KoKo and Dread Gaze, I'll have no idea what is (all I know is that it's a requirement), but I'll assume it's a discipline similar to the thingy on my vampire's discipline bar.

and are discipline requirement symbols so I play them like all discipline requirement symbols in the game by following the rulebook. but the Golden Rule of VTES kicks in from the card text that they are not disciplines, which prevents me from playing them in any manner that specifies disciplines (effectively, any card that is not titled Striga or Maleficia).

I'm reading a Jyhad rulebook. It lists and shows all disciplines on the back. Now I'm reading a Legacies of Blood rulebook. It has an image of Jeremey MacNeil on the back with all of the card components labeled, including disciplines.

Even though I don't know what Necromancy is from reading these books, I can assume that it's a discipline. I would also naturally assume Striga and Maleficia are disciplines with only this knowledge, which would be wrong.

Also, I have at least 30 small yellow cards with all of the disciplines and clans listed, named, and with the images shown on them.

1up20x6 wrote:

I'm reading a Jyhad rulebook. It lists and shows all disciplines on the back. Now I'm reading a Legacies of Blood rulebook. It has an image of Jeremey MacNeil on the back with all of the card components labeled, including disciplines.

Any new player who tries to learn the game from the Jyhad rulebook is gonna have bigger things to worry about than Striga and Maleficia. it was so badly written.
since this whole discussion seems to assume all new VTES players lack a single iota of common sense, maybe showing them the Jeremy MacNeil example page from older rulebooks will confuse them further. they might wonder why their vampires are not all named Jeremy MacNeil.

Even though I don't know what Necromancy is from reading these books, I can assume that it's a discipline. I would also naturally assume Striga and Maleficia are disciplines with only this knowledge, which would be wrong.

even though you don't know whether Striga is a discipline or not from reading the rulebook, you can PLAY any Striga card in the exact same fashion as those Necromancy cards! "how to play these cards?" was the topic brought up here, not magically knowing a piece of rules trivia about Striga -- a piece of trivia that is pointless if you don't have any Striga cards at your table to play with, and yet is printed on every single Striga card ANYWAY.

Even though I don't know what a Hunting Ground is from reading my rulebook, I can naturally assume that one vampire can gain blood from multiple Hunting Grounds each turn, which would be wrong. Until I find out that every single Hunting Ground ever printed says otherwise. The rulebook should've told me ahead of time so I wouldn't assume things about cards I'm about to read for the first time.

From the rulebook, I can also naturally assume I can play multiple Carrion Crows in a combat, just like all other combat cards. Oh wait, I can read the card and see that it overrides that rule from the rulebook. Why don't they tell me how to play Carrion Crows in the rulebook if it's so dang different?

Also, I have at least 30 small yellow cards with all of the disciplines and clans listed, named, and with the images shown on them.

I have at least 30 small white reference cards that have disciplines and clans but don't have Abombwe listed on them. how the hell do I play an Abombwe card??????? JUDGE! OVER HERE!

Haze wrote:

1up20x6 wrote:

I'm reading a Jyhad rulebook. It lists and shows all disciplines on the back. Now I'm reading a Legacies of Blood rulebook. It has an image of Jeremey MacNeil on the back with all of the card components labeled, including disciplines.

Any new player who tries to learn the game from the Jyhad rulebook is gonna have bigger things to worry about than Striga and Maleficia. it was so badly written.

What a wonderfully interesting opinion that has nothing to do with this discussion.

since this whole discussion seems to assume all new VTES players lack a single iota of common sense, maybe showing them the Jeremy MacNeil example page from older rulebooks will confuse them further. they might wonder why their vampires are not all named Jeremy MacNeil.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about, but I'm discussing the fact that a new player would have a lot of common sense and naturally assume that Striga and Maleficia are disciplines, which they are not.

Even though I don't know what Necromancy is from reading these books, I can assume that it's a discipline. I would also naturally assume Striga and Maleficia are disciplines with only this knowledge, which would be wrong.

even though you don't know whether Striga is a discipline or not from reading the rulebook, you can PLAY any Striga card in the exact same fashion as those Necromancy cards! "how to play these cards?" was the topic brought up here, not magically knowing a piece of rules trivia about Striga -- a piece of trivia that is pointless if you don't have any Striga cards at your table to play with, and yet is printed on every single Striga card ANYWAY.

There is a master who's name escapes me which counts as any discipline. A new player might try to use it to play Striga or Maleficia, which cannot be done.

Even though I don't know what a Hunting Ground is from reading my rulebook, I can naturally assume that one vampire can gain blood from multiple Hunting Grounds each turn, which would be wrong. Until I find out that every single Hunting Ground ever printed says otherwise. The rulebook should've told me ahead of time so I wouldn't assume things about cards I'm about to read for the first time.

I'm sorry, are you being sarcastic? I can't be positive, but I think you are, so I'll respond as though you are.

As you said, all Hunting Grounds have the text. Not all Striga/Maleficia discipline cards do (in fact, aside from the masters, none of them do). The main point is that these are not disciplines when they seem as though they should be to a new player. You don't need to go into a 40-page description of every card that requires the disciplines in the rulebook, you simply need to write that they are pseudo-disciplines, and possibly explain how to play them for clarity.

From the rulebook, I can also naturally assume I can play multiple Carrion Crows in a combat, just like all other combat cards. Oh wait, I can read the card and see that it overrides that rule from the rulebook. Why don't they tell me how to play Carrion Crows in the rulebook if it's so dang different?

Oh, how clever. You used yet another example that still does not in any way affect the topic at hand. You get a gold star!

Check my paragraph above - since you're trying to use the same point with two different cards, I don't really need to change my argument at all.

Also, I have at least 30 small yellow cards with all of the disciplines and clans listed, named, and with the images shown on them.

I have at least 30 small white reference cards that have disciplines and clans but don't have Abombwe listed on them. how the hell do I play an Abombwe card??????? JUDGE! OVER HERE!

If you have some form of brain injury that prevents you from forming long-term memory, I apologize in advance. Otherwise, I am confused as to why you cannot remember the point you had made in your last post, which had nothing to do with Striga/Maleficia, and instead dealt with the availability of the names of the disciplines.

wrong. nowhere in the rulebook does it tell me

 is a discipline. if the only two cards I own are KoKo and Dread Gaze, I'll have no idea what 
 is (all I know is that it's a requirement), but I'll assume it's a discipline similar to the [pot] thingy on my vampire's discipline bar.

1. You made a point (That a new player has no reasonable way of knowing what any given discipline is called)
2. I provided three examples (Jyhad rulebook, LoN rulebook, and the reference card)
3. I disproved your point

Nowhere did I mention the reference cards not containing Striga or Maleficia (Whether they should or not is irrelevant) and therefore new players not knowing how to play them. I merely disproved your rather weak argument, as shown above.