file On Villein. 1. "problematic card"

16 Nov 2011 14:50 #14553 by Joscha
This is the first thread of the discussions about cards some people see as problematic.

As this is a collection of arguments for keeping the card as it is (PRO card) or changing it in whatever way (CONTRA card).

It would be most useful, if you could write above your entry, if your arguments are PRO or CONTRA the card as it is to attain best clarity of what speaks in favor of the card and what does not.

After 7 days of discussion I will initialize a poll about that specific card, in which the alternatives can be found.

Villein
Cardtype: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control and move 2 or more blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.

CONTRA

I now see the card as a problem, because its trifleness. It makes bloating easier as with Minion Tap because you can play two in a Masterphase or play Villein plus Lilith's Blessing or Giant's Blood, a perfect combo. Without its trifleness this wouldn't be possible. Even if you have two MPAs you would be greatly handicaped by a Sudden Reversal, a fact you wouldn't encounter if you get an extra-mpa because of the trifle effect.

At the EC every final ended because of Timeout. I think this is because of the massive bloating decks can do. Just with Minion Taps I think this was not possible before in that huge amounts.

I'd keep the Minion Tap hinderance. You can't recycle Villein with means like Anthelios like you can with Minion Tap. In addition you have to move 2 or more blood from a vampire (okay, just a minor drawback). To even that disadvantages compared to Minion Tap (after you take away its trifleness) you need the MT-hoser.

So I'd vote for taking away the trifle function.

Baron of Frankfurt

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16 Nov 2011 15:21 #14564 by Aeschere
CONTRA

Villein completely got rid of Minion Tap which hopefully wasn't the intention. To me it should be like a Vessel to a Blood Doll. Able to hinder the use of Blood Doll but with a drawback.
Right now Villein has no drawback. A minimum of 2 blood can't be considered a drawback to be honest. Especially since you can play it on vampires who have less then 2 blood.
The added trifle works well for Vessel since it has a drawback, if this would be the case for a Villein as well then the trifle is no issue.

I therefor either vote for taking down the trifle function or to add a penalty to Villein. Something like an initial pool cost or a reduced effect like converting x-1 blood to pool.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Juggernaut1981, Kraus

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16 Nov 2011 15:37 - 16 Nov 2011 15:38 #14573 by acbishop
PRO

Before Villein it wasn't possible to play efectively lots of decks with Big Caps vampires cause they were really slow, and they needed to have lots of Minion Taps to be sure they will have one at the beginning, increasing the risk of handjamming in the middle end game with master cards in hand, and aldo people complains about decks with Minion Tap + Voter Captivation + Anthelios decks. For me it is fine like it is.

:vtes:
Last edit: 16 Nov 2011 15:38 by acbishop.

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16 Nov 2011 16:07 - 16 Nov 2011 16:16 #14579 by Ankha
CONTRA

I agree with all of acbishop's argument (who is PRO). Villein made many big-cap vampires more playable because all your MPA were no longer eaten by Minion Tap.

However, I see some troubles with the Giant's Blood/Lilith's Blessing combos:
- Giant's Blood. Previously a great card, it's "who plays it first" wasn't really a big issue before. Sure, if your plan was based on it to save your vampire, you could get screwed. Now it has become a "who gains 10 pool first" with Villein.
- Lilith's Blessing. A difficult card to use, unless you use Villein. Even though 3 blood is not a lot to keep a vampire in life, it's still a 3-pool gain when played with Villein.

I see also some trouble with a too easy pool gain. Villein is so easy to play that you get almost free vampires. Regaining 10 pool after having influenced out a 11-cap is too much (especially if you consider you'll probably gain some more with a potential Golconda / Ancient Influence / Political Stranglehold or a plain refill + Villein)

We need Villein. But I would nerf it so you can't get more than 5 blood from the vampire. It's enough to survive when you play a big cap, avoids bad interactions. It becomes slightly worse than Minion Tap in pool gain (you can't gain 10 pool anymore) but is still a trifle, which is the main appeal (like Vessel).

You can still play two in a row, but it requires 2 cards, 1 pool, and the second Villein doesn't provide its trifle MPA so you can't chain it with Lilith's Blessing / Giant's Blood (unless you have 2 MPAs, in which case nothing has changed: you could have played Minion Tap instead, just as before Villein was printed).

I would leave the "Minion Tap hoser" effect because it doesn't have a big impact on the game and avoids too many changes on the card.

Villein
Cardtype: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on a vampire you control and move up to 5 blood from that vampire to your pool. Minion Tap cards cost an additional pool. Villein costs an additional pool to play on this vampire.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 16 Nov 2011 16:16 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hakuron, Pendargon

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16 Nov 2011 16:26 #14589 by Pendargon
CONTRA

All finals in Poland timed out, much of it due, i believe to the copious amount of villeins...

I think that trifleness should stay, otherwise it is just wallpaper to minion tap. However, maybe a cap on how much blood can be moved can be instated (like max 5 blood)..?

And i feel that the hose to Minion tap is too strong... I always look on the example of vessel vs blood doll, and i feel that vessel is excellently made, not wallpapering Blood doll, but certainly giving a choice.

:QUI: :POT: :OBE: :CEL: :OBF: :tore: :assa:

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16 Nov 2011 18:16 #14598 by Lech
PRO

It allowed people to play big capacity vampires and have some other masters in the deck.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
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