On Anthelios 8. "problematic card"

Ohlmann wrote:

But then again, Parity shift is powerful where Anthelios is broken (for all the reason I have given, like the fact it's hard to destroy, or the). You forgot the context to compare the arguments.

Hmm. Clearly, you are missing my point. You shot down the Parity Shift argument with a broad, sweeping generalization setting an impossibly high bar for what makes a card overpowered to the point that something needs to be done about it (as it was a convenient way for you to dismiss the Parity Shift argument). But everything you said in that broad, sweeping generalization to dismiss the Parity Shift argument can be used to dismiss your own Anthelios argument. Perhaps you should consider that before making broad, sweeping generalizations to dismiss arguments.

It has play requirement (like not using event), does not work very well (as have been already said), and is extremely costly to use.

It's cost is "Hey--predator of that Anthelios deck. If I play the Uncoiling and kill the Anthelios, you'll use a discard phase action to get rid of it, yes?" and getting a card out of your hand. Yeah, it makes using your own events dubious, but if you are using events, you are probably using Anthelios anyway (and not much else--the Unmaskening shows up, Narrow Minds shows up, Dragonbound shows up, Bitter Sweet Story shows up). Uncoiling is a very easy to use, general solution to Anthelios. And yet no one seems to want to use it.

Delaying tactic or Confusion or the eye or a lot of vote are not exactly that hard to add to a deck in comparison.

It is not exactly hard to add an Uncoiling to a deck, either. And you don't even need to have an untapped vampire to use. You just drop it into play when appropriate, and possibly flip a coin.

bakija wrote:

But it seems as if the best way to deal with it (The Uncoiling) is just being handwaved away, when I'd imagine that every deck that was being played in any serious tournament would be packing one. Or two.

No, the best way to counter some way too frequently used cards is not packing a counter (as it hinders YOUR own deck since you don't want any extra toolboxy cards in it) but instead bitching about how owerpowered it is and campaign to get it banned/errataed.

Lönkka wrote:

No, the best way to counter some way too frequently used cards is not packing a counter (as it hinders YOUR own deck since you don't want any extra toolboxy cards in it) but instead bitching about how owerpowered it is and campaign to get it banned/errataed.

Full well realizing that this is what we like to call "irony", I'll respond anyway.

Once and a while, there are cards that are, in fact, just too powerful. They affect the game too much. They warp the play environment, or make the game less fun or too narrow or too much of a crap shoot. These cards have existed. They currently exist. The game would improve as a whole if they were addressed. This is why people discuss them on the internet and argue that they are too strong and argue that they get fixed. I also realize that a lot of people are afraid of the Slippery Slope--"Villein is fixed, so what to target next?", and that makes folks cranky. But that doesn't mean that there aren't still cards that could use a fixing (I still stand by the statement that the three cards that need fixing/removing most are DI, Parity Shift, and Pentext Subversion, but that is neither here nor there in this discussion).

Again, I'm not arguing that Anthelios isn't overpowered. It might very well be (as I haven't set an impossibly high bar for what makes a card broken and need fixing...). But there *is* an easy, generally useful, flexible solution to Anthelios (i.e. The Uncoiling) that I'd think would show up in decks all the time; if you have a deck that doesn't rely on events (which is probably the majority of decks in the game), put in The Uncoiling--Anthelios shows up, The Unmaskening shows up, Dragonbound shows up, Narrow Minds shows up. Rarely, some Imbued apocalypse nightmare shows up. If The Uncoiling was as commonly seen as, say, Pentex Subversion or DI or Giant's Blood (which there is no reason that it shouldn't), Anthelios would seem a *lot* less effective. As it would blow up on a regular basis. That isn't to say that it isn't overpowered; it might be. But simply handwaving away the best, most obvious solution seems silly.

Hey, I'm with YOU on this mate...

bakija wrote:

If The Uncoiling was as commonly seen as, say, Pentex Subversion or DI or Giant's Blood (which there is no reason that it shouldn't), Anthelios would seem a *lot* less effective. As it would blow up on a regular basis. That isn't to say that it isn't overpowered; it might be. But simply handwaving away the best, most obvious solution seems silly.

You're right, Peter. But some folks just plain don't and won't include defensive cards in their decks. The Uncoiling is reactive and has a not insignificant drawback of permanent hand size reduction. But it is a great silver bullet and anyone who worries about Events in their metagame should use it instead of whining.