On Anthelios 8. "problematic card"

Lönkka wrote:

No, the best way to counter some way too frequently used cards is not packing a counter (as it hinders YOUR own deck since you don't want any extra toolboxy cards in it) but instead bitching about how owerpowered it is and campaign to get it banned/errataed.

It may not have been your intent, but I find a little impolite to say that anybody that say they don't like Anthelios at all are bitching whiner that won't pack one card in their deck.

I do pack Uncoiling in some deck. It's not too effective and it's a lot more taxing than what I need to keep safe from vote or combat. The other card are in my opinion far too difficult to use to be useful, except mayve the anarch one (I don't play anarch and I have never seen it played, so I don't know)

Less than half a dozen card (because Uncoiling can also help against Unmasking and certainly other powerful event) require me, at best, to pack an event, draw it at the right moment, hope nobody else play event, may permanently lower my hand size, and is useless against anything else.

And you may very well have to pack 2 or 3 to have it at the right moment.

Vote, in opposition, need at worst the same number of delaying tactics, that help against comparatively a lot of card, and work reliably when you have them at the right timing. Other votes solutions can be even more polyvalent or recyclable (like using inferior Confusion of the eye to cycle, or simply having enough votes to cause problems).

In short, Anthelios, for me, have :
* a lot of power
* few way to be dealt with, that are pretty costly
* make a lot of card retrieving card look bad
* prevent to find solutions for other master (for example, washing a Pentex Sub against an Anthelios-powered deck is not too useful)
* create deck that I don't like to play against. (not unlike Henry Taylor deck being boring - note that I don't say that Henry Taylor should be banned or anything)

I don't say that one of thoses reason alone would be enough, or that every body should scorn Anthelios, but I am for a ban or an errata.

(@Bakija : I believe there is a big incomprehension of either what I said in Parity shift or what you say here. I prefer not to respond at least for now, because the whole "broad sweeping generalization" coming from someone that I believe have said that's it's useless to play non-parity shift vote deck is a little puzzling, and it seem better for me to re-read everything before concluding anything)

Ohlmann wrote:

It may not have been your intent, but I find a little impolite to say that anybody that say they don't like Anthelios at all are bitching whiner that won't pack one card in their deck.

Wssn't directed solely at contra Anthelios guys, but contra any guys.

Adding counter cards makes your deck lose focus and some people hate that. It seems to me that instead of using the countermeasure cards that already exist and are viably sueable these people like to advocate banning/changing the card that aggravates them.

I'm not saying that one should include tens of different counter cards to your deck but if you your deck has a problem with a card or two, packing a cuntermeasure for these is a good idea. Same goes for a card that is heavily used in the meta.

johannes wrote:

Uncoiling is a great card and I play it a lot. The sole problem with it is that it randomly targets and event and in my games often multiple events are on the table (unmasking. Dragon bound ...).

Gadzooks. If you see games that have multiple events in play on a regular basis, why aren't you using The Uncoiling all the time?

So you have a one in 1-4 chance usually and then the evil MPA guy will blow up uncoiling even if it costs him a couple of pool. So while it is a good silver bullet it is a bit too random for my taste as a sole counter vs Anthelios.

It isn't a sole counter to Anthelios. It is a sole counter to events. Of which a few are very powerful and show up a lot (i.e. Anthelios, Unmaskening, Dragonbound), and a few are less powerful, but still show up periodically (Narrow Minds, Scourge, Bitter Sweet Story). And once and a while, there are large numbers of them on the table, at which point you probably desperately want to kill some anyway.

Yeah, once and a while, you'll have a 50% or 25% chance of killing the Anthelios. A lot of the time, however, you'll have a 100% chance of killing the one event that is sitting on the table that someone else is benefitting from more than you (i.e. Anthelios or Unmaskening or Dragonbound). Given that those three events tend to be incredibly effective in the decks that use them, I'd think that it would be worth using Uncoiling simply 'cause you can. As killing the sole Anthelios or Unmaskening on the table is going to generally help you and hinder someone else. A lot. And if people were doing this (i.e. including The Uncoiling in all of their decks that didn't rely on events of their own), cards like Anthelios would seem a lot less insane.

Ohlmann wrote:

I do pack Uncoiling in some deck. It's not too effective and it's a lot more taxing than what I need to keep safe from vote or combat.

How is it not too effective? It will kill another event on the table 100% of the time. Often, there will be only one other event on the table. You drop Uncoiling in play, and that event is destroyed. You can probably get someone else to then blow it up for you (i.e. your cross table buddy who is probably perfectly happy that you killed that event). The more events that are in play, the more likely it is that you want to kill them; yeah, it won't always get exactly the worst of those events, but it will get at least one of them, and those events are helping someone else far more than you. And if it doesn't get more than one of those events, someone has paid pool to kill your Uncoiling, at which point, it has no negatives at all. If you aren't relying on your own events? You should have the Uncoiling in your deck. As if someone else has Anthelios or Unmaskening in play, you probably want it dead.

(@Bakija : I believe there is a big incomprehension of either what I said in Parity shift or what you say here. I prefer not to respond at least for now, because the whole "broad sweeping generalization" coming from someone that I believe have said that's it's useless to play non-parity shift vote deck is a little puzzling, and it seem better for me to re-read everything before concluding anything)

To clarify, you wrote this, in regards to the discussion on Parity Shift being overpowered:

"I believe that card that give powerfuls effect should be banned only if they remove completely entires decks or thousands of cards, and a quick look to vote deck don't convince me at all of that."

Saying that a card that gives a powerful effect should only be banned only if they remove entire decks or thousands of cards is a sweeping generalization that completely nullifies your own entire argument about Anthelios, as it is a card that gives a powerful effect that you are arguing should be banned (or changed, presumably, as I was about Parity Shift) but does not remove entire decks or thousands of cards. You made a sweeping generalization. As it was convenient at the time for dismissing my argument. And I'm simply pointing out that it is now biting you in the ass. As I like irony.

Argue that Anthelios is overpowered all you want. I don't necessarily even disagree with you. And support your want to argue that it is overpowered. But if you are going to attack other people's similar arguments with broad sweeping generalizations that invalidate your own arguments in other areas, you might want to reconsider your debate tactics.

johannes wrote:

Uncoiling is a great card and I play it a lot. The sole problem with it is that it randomly targets and event and in my games often multiple events are on the table (unmasking. Dragon bound ...). So you have a one in 1-4 chance usually and then the evil MPA guy will blow up uncoiling even if it costs him a couple of pool. So while it is a good silver bullet it is a bit too random for my taste as a sole counter vs Anthelios.

I agree about Uncoiling. It's good but imprecise.

In addition, if lots of players start using Uncoiling, the Anthelios deck simply needs to include a few extra Gehenna events in *his* deck to provide alternative targets to Uncoiling. All he has to do is survive the first time Uncoiling triggers, and then pay the pool cost (probably recouped via Liquidation or Villein) and discard cost to get rid of Uncoiling for good.

It should be easy enough to include a couple of easily "replaced" Gehenna events that aren't too debilitating:

Blood Trade
Break the Code
Nightmares Upon Nightmares
Thirst

echiang wrote:

johannes wrote:

Uncoiling is a great card and I play it a lot. The sole problem with it is that it randomly targets and event and in my games often multiple events are on the table (unmasking. Dragon bound ...). So you have a one in 1-4 chance usually and then the evil MPA guy will blow up uncoiling even if it costs him a couple of pool. So while it is a good silver bullet it is a bit too random for my taste as a sole counter vs Anthelios.

I agree about Uncoiling. It's good but imprecise.

In addition, if lots of players start using Uncoiling, the Anthelios deck simply needs to include a few extra Gehenna events in *his* deck to provide alternative targets to Uncoiling. All he has to do is survive the first time Uncoiling triggers, and then pay the pool cost (probably recouped via Liquidation or Villein) and discard cost to get rid of Uncoiling for good.

It should be easy enough to include a couple of easily "replaced" Gehenna events that aren't too debilitating:

Blood Trade
Break the Code
Nightmares Upon Nightmares
Thirst

Or the player just include more copies of Anthelios in his deck, making it hit the table faster in the first place.