file is Archon Investigation a wasted slot?

04 Sep 2012 15:18 #35919 by TorranceCircle
I use this card in some decks. Usually to try to offset the drawback of not having bounce. I would not use it in a deck that has bounce usually.

I do not think AI is wasting card slots. I am surprised that some find it to always be a wasted slot.

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04 Sep 2012 15:29 - 04 Sep 2012 15:33 #35923 by Izaak
I find it a wasted slot under almost all circumstances for multiple reasons that I layed out in the Out of Africa thread over here: www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/7-deck-clinic/35727-welcome-to-africa

The summary is that Archon Investigation doesn't actually do what a lot of people think it does (not talking card text, talking game impact) and that it costs 3 pool (and your next MPA) to boot. AI is under almost all circumstances better as another master, even if it's just a Sudden or another Dreams.

From the mentioned thread it's clear people think otherwise, but similarly there are still hundreds of people sticking to 90 card decks for no specific reason other than that it makes them feel comfortable, even when shown that smaller decks are mathematically better. Those same people plan their turns on 2 actions per turn and then stick 37 action cards in their deck, thinking they actually get 20 turns to play them and are not bothered they don't get to play 40% of their deck during the game, but then claim that they would have won if "they had just drawn that Temptation of Greater Power".

So if people want to stick AI's in their deck because they think it makes them more likely to win (which is not the case) they by all means should keep doing it, but if they're looking to improve their, the AI's should almost always be the first to go.
Last edit: 04 Sep 2012 15:33 by Izaak.
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04 Sep 2012 15:35 #35924 by Ohlmann
Well, it is on most case a bad choice. It's different from a complete waste.

Apart from nitpicking, AI is an extremely costly card that do something usually does not end up benefitting you the most, and usually does not cover any role really useful for your deck.

Unlike what some people seem to believe, it's not really a defensive card. For a master phase action, reducing a bleed to three is quite often not an hughe benefit. It work only against powerbleed, meaning it's extremely narrow.

The main problem is that you must play it when you still have a lot of pool, because if you're at three after your AI (or even at 7), your predator actually have a big incentive to press his advantage and finish you off. So, you'd actualy better play it with bleed redirection, not in replacement to. Or with a significan wallish aspect, or with a lot of pool generation.

Also, when you are not under ten pool, your predator is significantly less likely to bleed you for more than three - it's often a good way to attract the hate from the entire table, and it's likely to make somebody turtle in instead of developping itself, which is alway bad.

It's obviously not an offensive card either, seeing you can only play it for bleed against you.

The main appeal, burning a vampire, almost never benefit you. Quite often, it's not enough to save you, and when it is, it usually give a VP to your grandpredator. Which WILL finish the job, regardless of how much you helped him.

So, it's ... kind of a veiled threat for your predator ? Or a "defence" card you hope to draw only at a very specific moment against a very specific threat ? None of thoses reasons are enough for me to want to play AI. I used to play 2 in rush deck, then discovering I was alway ending up way better when I wasn't drawing it.

AI is king of like Burning Wrath, a card that is way too costly for be played regulary, regardless of the shock effet of playing it.
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04 Sep 2012 15:49 #35926 by TorranceCircle
Good points Ohlmann and Izaak. I use multiple AI in my blood brothers deck, more so people I play against know when they bleed me for more than 3 they are in danger of being burned. This only works as a small deterent since they know they wiil be rushed if they don't oust me.

I don't always draw them in a 75 card deck. There have been times when an AI has sat there in my hand, taking up crucial hand space in a combat deck.

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04 Sep 2012 16:17 #35930 by Kraus

Well, I think you're being too absolute about this. :) I'm happy to disagree with most of your opinions.

If you're playing a deck with little blocking mechanisms, and no option for bounce, the stealth bleeders will try to push through you as soon as possible, and most are able to deliver 4+ damage with a bleed. And there're a lot of stealth bleeders in any meta, I'd argue.

I'm still of the opinion that taking a vampire out of a stealth bleeder's arsenal does not hurt his chances of survival, but it does help me survive - I'd be bled for 4+ anyways, so it's not really taking my resources away (see that I'm not talking about bouncy decks here), and it'll most likely help me in the long run. That's because there's one less vampires bleeding me in the next turn. :)

Obviously there are draw backs to this card, and plenty of them, and there's a chance you'll never get to play it. I, however, see use for it in a couple of deck types, mainly combat and presence voters without much of a reaction module.

About the argument that your grand predator will just get an easy sweep: I usually aim the Archon Investigation against dominate bleeders. How exactly does killing one bleeder make that player instantly lose the game? I mean, their main defense is bounces and an occasional Delaying Tactics. If I rid one vampire from my predator, how does that make his survivability less secure? I mean, my logic just doesn't stretch that far. :dry: If I'd AI his last minion, which would be Lutz or something, I'd understand that logic, but now I'm just clueless. Losing a minion should just either make them lunge (hopefully not), or make them play more carefully, and defensively to stay alive.

My main point is that if I get an AI through early on I get a lot of extra space to play my own game without that much pressure. I'd argue it'll take some time from my Grand Predator to oust his Prey, so that's just extra time bought. Notice that this (obviously) still applies when not playing bounces.

I'm not saying it's an auto include card, by any means, but it's most certainly not a waste in all and every situation. IF you get it through, I argue there're more benefits than drawbacks, which (it appears to me) is not the general consensus.

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04 Sep 2012 16:25 #35932 by Ohlmann

If you're playing a deck with little blocking mechanisms, and no option for bounce, the stealth bleeders will try to push through you as soon as possible, and most are able to deliver 4+ damage with a bleed. And there're a lot of stealth bleeders in any meta, I'd argue.


The mean problem is, AI won't stop any aggressive bleeder, and sometime even won't even slow him as far as you are concerned. They may be too weakened to make another VP, but they almost alway finish you or let you at two pool for a new and fresh predator. Especially since you play it in deck which have very few defences !

You also seem to believe you will draw and play your AI at the starting phase, (where big bleed are a lot less likely, but that's another problem). This mean a significant number of AI. And what will you do once you have drawn two AI ? Also, do you count the clogging problem that occur, or the fact that you will be tempted to play it to blow up a cross table ally ?

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