file is Archon Investigation a wasted slot?

05 Sep 2012 05:10 - 05 Sep 2012 05:13 #35986 by Kraus

Ohlmann wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote: Ohlmann, obviously your players play higher-risk VTES. If they will continually risk getting AId on the gamble that it will pay off, instead of just bleeding for 3 repeatedly... then they deserve to get 0VPs. Its a no-brainer... to avoid AI, turn your powerbleed into a regular bleed.


Well, I believe you may be mistaking me for another people, since it would more be K[r]aus who say people start powerbleeding right away.

And yes, I'm constantly experiencing that. :) It's just my meta then, I suppose.

I also find many of those bleeders to attempt to back oust me on many occasions, especially if I'm playing a combat heavy deck. Sometimes even just 'cause of spite. I've gotten to Archon Julia Prima or a Dem bleeder bleeding me for 4 with Kindred Spirits (backwards) on some occasions, and burning a vampire from my Prey was kinda cool. Not that it works as an argument towards anything, I'm aware, but just thought I'd share the story.

Also about good/bad players: You can't really count on everyone being a good player, and even good players make mistakes. Thinking that the game's all about 100% theoretically best in-game choices is a bit out of reality. Also, there's the thing about being the good player among possible bad players - if something freaks the 'worse' players (less experienced?) out, I think it's a good idea to make use of that. That'll give you a psychological and social edge.

Very minor arguments and benefits of the cards, but the main point in this message is that it might be an issue of meta as well. I regularly face at least one player playing strong dominate bleed, and I've found bloat and reducing of the amount of bleeders from the table are a good thing for my own survival.

Once again, please note that I'm not saying it's a horribly, horribly good card that should be found in every deck. There are loads of great masters like Dreams of the Sphinx, which I do include in just about every deck I build. It's just a nice addition if it promotes a tactic of minion reduce from the table.

Also, you can use Demonic Possession or Eternal Mask on that AI'd Lutz or Arika. :silly:

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Last edit: 05 Sep 2012 05:13 by Kraus.

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05 Sep 2012 05:52 #35989 by Lemminkäinen

KevinM wrote: -it costs 2 less than AI; that cost can be made-up
-it gets played immediately, rather than sitting in your hand waiting for a condition
-when played, you cycle into more cards, rather than playing with a 6-card hand (think Dragonbound, that doesnt help you win, just keeps you from losing)
-it's an out-of-turn Master, which denies you another Master play on your turn

The problem with comparing to Dreams is that it is one of the best (if not the best) Master and that there is a high likelihood that the other four decks on the table are also playing multiple copies of it (or if they aren't, they should). And it's unique. So comparing to Dreams is IMO silly.

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05 Sep 2012 05:53 #35990 by Lemminkäinen

Izaak wrote: From the mentioned thread it's clear people think otherwise, but similarly there are still hundreds of people sticking to 90 card decks for no specific reason other than that it makes them feel comfortable, even when shown that smaller decks are mathematically better. Those same people plan their turns on 2 actions per turn and then stick 37 action cards in their deck, thinking they actually get 20 turns to play them and are not bothered they don't get to play 40% of their deck during the game, but then claim that they would have won if "they had just drawn that Temptation of Greater Power".

I hear those same players also kick puppies for no good reason!
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05 Sep 2012 08:07 - 05 Sep 2012 08:10 #36001 by johannes

Ohlmann wrote: This is why when you can play AI, you are usually extremely close to be ousted anyway. It's also why I believe AI is better with bleed redirection, not when you have a very shaky defense like a pure rush combat


Absolutely. My "standard module" would be 6-8 Telepathic Misdirection and 2 AI on 70 cards.

I understand the arguments about the high opportunity cost of the card, however it can be quite offensive in a way that you can make sure not to be ousted and therefore go forward because that Inner Circle's bleed will cost you max 3.
Last edit: 05 Sep 2012 08:10 by johannes.

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05 Sep 2012 08:31 #36003 by Ohlmann

Juggernaut1981 wrote: @Ohlmann: Yes, but if that is the only situation (i.e. lunging for the kill) where you expect to see the use of AI, then it is worthless. I don't see that as the only situation where AI is played or should be played.


But to play it mean that you are being bled for more than three. And I don't usually see (somewhat good) player trying to bleed for more than three in any moment other than the final lunge.

Even without any Archon Investigation I wouldn't advice to powerbleed a player without :dom: or :AUS: if you don't have a reasonable chance of ousting him outright. You may attract radical mesure from all the players at once, and/or expand ressource that would be useful later, so you'd better have a sensible gain to do it.

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05 Sep 2012 13:25 #36007 by Surreal
I don't like AI in my decks because I think AI usually benefits me only against bad players. But I am super happy that so many play the card so threat of AI exists. That is all I need.
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