Balancing Ashur Tablets

Jeff wrote:

No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

Huh?

Jeff wrote:

ReverendRevolver wrote:

The table shouldnt have to deal with 50 pool.

If gaining pool is the real issue, then Ashur Tablets contribution to that issue is minimal and indirect.

Thats what Ive been saying. You play two delay ascendances and then a normal ome to cash in the other two, and an assload of cards.

Its the Girls-o-tron 5000(!©) that breaks the whole damn thing. Especially the masters that become a bounce, extra pentex/DI as needed, and so on. The pool reaching 50 happens,when you can golconda and recur said golconda and a villein or six.

Magic also had gaeas blessing or whatever for 1G, and if it got milled into your heap, you got to shuffle said heap baxk to your dexk. Also, you lose if unable to draw a card, so its a tad different for us.

And I dont even entirely disagree with you, because that opening liquidation is wher AT starts to break stuff, but jabs at the Vekn for not banning cards when people are still pissed about not errataing LB (not from a pack, i concede) is odd.

Plainly, they are looking into stuff. Constantly. Its Pascals call, and hes a very thout out decision maker on thwse. Blaming "current administration" here works less well than even normal. Pascal is this vague and malevalent "them" and its freakin Pascal, so hes incredibly nice and tactical about rules decisions.

Jeff wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The risk associated with Ashur Tablets is rather low. Opportunity costs are not huge, and as you said there are relatively few in print for the 'table clear' effect to be frequent and damaging to others Ashur Tablets. And of course the risk-reward equation is in favour of playing them... I'm suggesting the rewards are too good.

The card that breaks Ashur Tablets isn't Ashur Tablets. It's Liquidation. A simple first turn Master card that gives 3 pool with almost no drawback is what creates the bloat issues that keeps Girls MMPA decks alive. Successfully popping Ashur Tablets requires 3 MPAs and no "contesting" of the tablets. That's a scarcity issue, not a power issue.

Liquidation is only useful if you need things in your ashheap later (i.e. Corrupt Construction, Vulture's Buffet, Shambling Hordes, etc). Without that need, Liquidation only becomes broken when you be guaranteed to return all those cards and offset the lost-opportunity cost of throwing away the top 7 cards. Ashur Tablets breaks Liquidation, not the reverse.

Jeff wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

So thank you for confirming it Jeff.

Misreading again, as always.

You confirmed my point. It is there in black and white, we said the same thing. We draw different conclusions.

Jeff wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Your reply to ICL just confirms the other claim I made, that it allows in-game sideboarding or as Darby put it Card Probability Set restructuring in game.

Claim? Thank you Captain Obvious. Ashur Tablets was clearly designed to allow you to retune your deck from the ash heap.

Sometimes its nice to have a chance to make a smart decision in game that may pay off down the road. Many people would rather have 3x Villein, or 3x Dreams of the Sphinx, or 3x Sudden Reversal than 3x Ashur Tablets in their deck.

So yes, you agree with me that Ashur Tablets allows you to redesign the ratio of cards in your deck while playing the deck. Darby, ICL and myself claim that this card is the equivalent of sideboarding during the game, something never otherwise done in VTES and rarely done even in MtG (AFAIK).

Jeff wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Another way to put the same idea is that if you built a toolbox, you can now 'un-toolbox' it by redrawing the parts of the toolbox that are more effective in the environment and convert a toolbox into a S&B or Combat Wall or Vote-Push deck during the game.

Congratulations on discovering the wonders of using Ashur Tablets. Now go proxy some and use them more often and understand their real drawbacks!

Used them, I know what they do and I also realise that the opportunity costs of the card are not what you claim even if a large number appeared in circulation.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Liquidation is only useful if you need things in your ashheap later (i.e. Corrupt Construction, Vulture's Buffet, Shambling Hordes, etc). Without that need, Liquidation only becomes broken when you be guaranteed to return all those cards and offset the lost-opportunity cost of throwing away the top 7 cards. Ashur Tablets breaks Liquidation, not the reverse.

Seriously? "Liquidation is only useful if..." You're going to discount the 3 pool gain entirely? I know your judgment is kind of flawed, but wow.

3 pool for a single master card, guaranteed. No questions asked, and a minor restriction. At least Tend the Flock requires a vampire in play and a younger, infernal target.

So yes, you agree with me that Ashur Tablets allows you to redesign the ratio of cards in your deck while playing the deck. Darby, ICL and myself claim that this card is the equivalent of sideboarding during the game, something never otherwise done in VTES and rarely done even in MtG (AFAIK).

Um...again, there's no "claim" to it at all. The card does what it does. You are correct in pointing out something that other people have observed already, many times. Again, so what?

Ashur Tablets only brings into sharper focus the cards that are extremely strong, because they get used over and over again during the course of a game.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Plainly, they are looking into stuff. Constantly. Its Pascals call, and hes a very thout out decision maker on thwse. Blaming "current administration" here works less well than even normal. Pascal is this vague and malevalent "them" and its freakin Pascal, so hes incredibly nice and tactical about rules decisions.

I have said many times that Pascal is one of the hardest working members of the Inner Circle. (And lately Gines, who I'm sure spends more time getting art together than designers spend mulling over cards.) If the decision were solely up to him, I think he'd make the right one. But there are other pressures that will block any decision to ban cards that people have bought out of packs. Those are things beyond Pascal's control.

Topic is called "Balancing Ashur Tablets", would be nice if this turned into a constructive thread

Liquidation + AT is one gamebreaking combination, it's a prime example on how AT can be abused. Liquidation by itself is not overpowered, burning 7 cards for 3 pool is quite a sacrifice.

There's no denying however that AT enables a lot more powerful combinations and it DOES provide an in-game sidedeck, such is the design of the card. The only downside of the card is pulling it off before someone else does.

"The only downside of the card is pulling it off before someone else does."

Plain and simple, without AT competition, the card is broken. You cannot mitigate this problem with sudden reversals or trochomancy. Well you can with trochomancy, but a player that uses AT can be pretty sure he will see trochomancy against him as often as AT (probably even less so)...

I liked Jeff Kuta's idea, "Fragment of Ashur's Tablet" that could return the AT competition. Something along the line of:

Fragment of Ashur's Tablet, Master, Trifle
Card text:
Put this card in play. Remove all Fragment of Ashur's Tablets AND Ashur's Tablet in play from the game when you have 3 Fragments of Ashur's Tablets in play to gain 1 pool and you may select up to 5 cards in your ashheap and reshuffle them into your library.

The tech to recycle cards is not flawed, however 13 cards is over the top imho.

GreyB wrote:

I liked Jeff Kuta's idea, "Fragment of Ashur's Tablet" that could return the AT competition. Something along the line of:

Fragment of Ashur's Tablet, Master, Trifle
Card text:
Put this card in play. Remove all Fragment of Ashur's Tablets AND Ashur's Tablet in play from the game when you have 3 Fragments of Ashur's Tablets in play to gain 1 pool and you may select up to 5 cards in your ashheap and reshuffle them into your library.

The tech to recycle cards is not flawed, however 13 cards is over the top imho.

This idea it terrible for two big reasons:
1) It is a silver bullet, right out of the Villein playbook.
2) It doesn't have enough reason for you to play it other than stopping others playing it, which is the main reason why people put Pentex Subversion and Giant's Blood into most decks.

Tech to recycle cards has been sitting at:
1) RFG the card you play and it is some form of action.
2) 4 cards at most.
3) No secondary benefit to card recycling.

People already object to Anthelios and it is 'trade a Master for a Master'. You rarely see Summon Soul played. Sudario Refraction is not particularly common. Reinforcements is rarely played. Fragment isn't commonly played. WMO is rare, mostly because !Brujah are rare and it is worth its slot when it is drawn early.


As a constructive point, we should drop the power of Ashur Tablets.
Most common suggestions are:
1) Restrict the cards it can return, let it give you pool.
2) Let it give you unrestricted cards, and no pool.
3) Restrict the cards it can return and no pool.
4) Nerf it to the point where it is banned by proxy (depowered so it is left out of decks)
5) Just ban it outright to avoid the errata problems.

"New card solutions" all end up advocating for silver bullets or some form of punitive carpet bomb on MMPA.

Jeff wrote:

No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

Jeff wrote:

I have said many times that Pascal is one of the hardest working members of the Inner Circle. (And lately Gines, who I'm sure spends more time getting art together than designers spend mulling over cards.)

How would you know? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

Jeff wrote:

If the decision were solely up to him, I think he'd make the right one. But there are other pressures that will block any decision to ban cards that people have bought out of packs. Those are things beyond Pascal's control.

What "other pressures"?? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

I think that you've caused enough damage around here and your minor contributions are far outweighed by your constant scab-picking and trolling the good, hard-working volunteers or this community. I had thought that MAYBE you had put all of this filth behind you. It saddens me deeply to see that I was wrong.

What a shame that you are still mentally ill with lingering paranoia and lashing out at the ones that you believe hurt you with both subtle and unjustified accusations is still your prime motivating factor.

MODERATORS: I'm calling for a public forum and serious consideration to ban Jeff Kuta from this website unless a public apology is given from his for his continued unjustified accusations against the various parties involved. His presence HURTS this website and his unjustified accusations are borderline libelous.

When one finds cancer, one cuts out the cancer. Jeff Kuta is a cancer on this website and on the game that we all love and his continued actions prove that he cares for neither.

KevinM wrote:

Jeff wrote:

No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

Jeff wrote:

I have said many times that Pascal is one of the hardest working members of the Inner Circle. (And lately Gines, who I'm sure spends more time getting art together than designers spend mulling over cards.)

How would you know? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

Jeff wrote:

If the decision were solely up to him, I think he'd make the right one. But there are other pressures that will block any decision to ban cards that people have bought out of packs. Those are things beyond Pascal's control.

What "other pressures"?? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

I think that you've caused enough damage around here and your minor contributions are far outweighed by your constant scab-picking and trolling the good, hard-working volunteers or this community. I had thought that MAYBE you had put all of this filth behind you. It saddens me deeply to see that I was wrong.

What a shame that you are still mentally ill with lingering paranoia and lashing out at the ones that you believe hurt you with both subtle and unjustified accusations is still your prime motivating factor.

MODERATORS: I'm calling for a public forum and serious consideration to ban Jeff Kuta from this website unless a public apology is given from his for his continued unjustified accusations against the various parties involved. His presence HURTS this website and his unjustified accusations are borderline libelous.

When one finds cancer, one cuts out the cancer. Jeff Kuta is a cancer on this website and on the game that we all love and his continued actions prove that he cares for neither.

Erm... Perhaps you should actually read the quotes you quoted... Seems to me that Jeff said nothing disrespectful nor anything close to an accusation... As someone new to these forums I just have to step back and marvel at these petty squables that make no sense...

ps. would be nice if this turned into a constructive thread!!! *HINT HINT*