file Balancing Ashur Tablets

25 Jul 2014 18:13 #64077 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
First: This is a discussion forum, so I guess you have to accept that I use subjective arguments, sorry.

Then I´m somewhat confused, why to you compare ANY recursion (like Reinforcements, come on!!) with AT? Like AaronC said: The debate isn't whether recursion is bad, the debate is at what scale recursion becomes bad.

I´m not exactely sure if it is AT that is the key broken component here, but with Liquidation and Anthelios it get´s a bit too ugly to be fun.

And like ReverendRevolver said: Something being "balanced" by a whole table killing it isnt really balanced. I´m sick and tired over certain decks winning just because good players aren´t good enough players to convince newbies that certain decks are too much of a threat not to gang up on. That kind of games are so incredibly boring (subjetive argument again, sorry!)

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26 Jul 2014 03:30 - 26 Jul 2014 03:30 #64099 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

Huh?

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Last edit: 26 Jul 2014 03:30 by Lönkka.
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26 Jul 2014 11:13 #64104 by ReverendRevolver

The table shouldnt have to deal with 50 pool.


If gaining pool is the real issue, then Ashur Tablets contribution to that issue is minimal and indirect.


Thats what Ive been saying. You play two delay ascendances and then a normal ome to cash in the other two, and an assload of cards.

Its the Girls-o-tron 5000(!©) ;) that breaks the whole damn thing. Especially the masters that become a bounce, extra pentex/DI as needed, and so on. The pool reaching 50 happens,when you can golconda and recur said golconda and a villein or six.

Magic also had gaeas blessing or whatever for 1G, and if it got milled into your heap, you got to shuffle said heap baxk to your dexk. Also, you lose if unable to draw a card, so its a tad different for us.

And I dont even entirely disagree with you, because that opening liquidation is wher AT starts to break stuff, but jabs at the Vekn for not banning cards when people are still pissed about not errataing LB (not from a pack, i concede) is odd.

Plainly, they are looking into stuff. Constantly. Its Pascals call, and hes a very thout out decision maker on thwse. Blaming "current administration" here works less well than even normal. Pascal is this vague and malevalent "them" and its freakin Pascal, so hes incredibly nice and tactical about rules decisions.

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26 Jul 2014 21:33 #64121 by Juggernaut1981

The risk associated with Ashur Tablets is rather low. Opportunity costs are not huge, and as you said there are relatively few in print for the 'table clear' effect to be frequent and damaging to others Ashur Tablets. And of course the risk-reward equation is in favour of playing them... I'm suggesting the rewards are too good.


The card that breaks Ashur Tablets isn't Ashur Tablets. It's Liquidation. A simple first turn Master card that gives 3 pool with almost no drawback is what creates the bloat issues that keeps Girls MMPA decks alive. Successfully popping Ashur Tablets requires 3 MPAs and no "contesting" of the tablets. That's a scarcity issue, not a power issue.

Liquidation is only useful if you need things in your ashheap later (i.e. Corrupt Construction, Vulture's Buffet, Shambling Hordes, etc). Without that need, Liquidation only becomes broken when you be guaranteed to return all those cards and offset the lost-opportunity cost of throwing away the top 7 cards. Ashur Tablets breaks Liquidation, not the reverse.

So thank you for confirming it Jeff.


Misreading again, as always.

You confirmed my point. It is there in black and white, we said the same thing. We draw different conclusions.

Your reply to ICL just confirms the other claim I made, that it allows in-game sideboarding or as Darby put it Card Probability Set restructuring in game.


Claim? Thank you Captain Obvious. Ashur Tablets was clearly designed to allow you to retune your deck from the ash heap.

Sometimes its nice to have a chance to make a smart decision in game that may pay off down the road. Many people would rather have 3x Villein, or 3x Dreams of the Sphinx, or 3x Sudden Reversal than 3x Ashur Tablets in their deck.

So yes, you agree with me that Ashur Tablets allows you to redesign the ratio of cards in your deck while playing the deck. Darby, ICL and myself claim that this card is the equivalent of sideboarding during the game, something never otherwise done in VTES and rarely done even in MtG (AFAIK).

Another way to put the same idea is that if you built a toolbox, you can now 'un-toolbox' it by redrawing the parts of the toolbox that are more effective in the environment and convert a toolbox into a S&B or Combat Wall or Vote-Push deck during the game.


Congratulations on discovering the wonders of using Ashur Tablets. Now go proxy some and use them more often and understand their real drawbacks!

Used them, I know what they do and I also realise that the opportunity costs of the card are not what you claim even if a large number appeared in circulation.

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26 Jul 2014 22:35 #64124 by Jeff Kuta

Liquidation is only useful if you need things in your ashheap later (i.e. Corrupt Construction, Vulture's Buffet, Shambling Hordes, etc). Without that need, Liquidation only becomes broken when you be guaranteed to return all those cards and offset the lost-opportunity cost of throwing away the top 7 cards. Ashur Tablets breaks Liquidation, not the reverse.


Seriously? "Liquidation is only useful if..." You're going to discount the 3 pool gain entirely? I know your judgment is kind of flawed, but wow.

3 pool for a single master card, guaranteed. No questions asked, and a minor restriction. At least Tend the Flock requires a vampire in play and a younger, infernal target.

So yes, you agree with me that Ashur Tablets allows you to redesign the ratio of cards in your deck while playing the deck. Darby, ICL and myself claim that this card is the equivalent of sideboarding during the game, something never otherwise done in VTES and rarely done even in MtG (AFAIK).


Um...again, there's no "claim" to it at all. The card does what it does. You are correct in pointing out something that other people have observed already, many times. Again, so what?

Ashur Tablets only brings into sharper focus the cards that are extremely strong, because they get used over and over again during the course of a game.

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26 Jul 2014 22:39 #64125 by Jeff Kuta

Plainly, they are looking into stuff. Constantly. Its Pascals call, and hes a very thout out decision maker on thwse. Blaming "current administration" here works less well than even normal. Pascal is this vague and malevalent "them" and its freakin Pascal, so hes incredibly nice and tactical about rules decisions.


I have said many times that Pascal is one of the hardest working members of the Inner Circle. (And lately Gines, who I'm sure spends more time getting art together than designers spend mulling over cards.) If the decision were solely up to him, I think he'd make the right one. But there are other pressures that will block any decision to ban cards that people have bought out of packs. Those are things beyond Pascal's control.

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