file Balancing Ashur Tablets

27 Jul 2014 05:41 - 27 Jul 2014 05:45 #64131 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Topic is called "Balancing Ashur Tablets", would be nice if this turned into a constructive thread ;)

Liquidation + AT is one gamebreaking combination, it's a prime example on how AT can be abused. Liquidation by itself is not overpowered, burning 7 cards for 3 pool is quite a sacrifice.

There's no denying however that AT enables a lot more powerful combinations and it DOES provide an in-game sidedeck, such is the design of the card. The only downside of the card is pulling it off before someone else does.

"The only downside of the card is pulling it off before someone else does."

Plain and simple, without AT competition, the card is broken. You cannot mitigate this problem with sudden reversals or trochomancy. Well you can with trochomancy, but a player that uses AT can be pretty sure he will see trochomancy against him as often as AT (probably even less so)...

I liked Jeff Kuta's idea, "Fragment of Ashur's Tablet" that could return the AT competition. Something along the line of:

Fragment of Ashur's Tablet, Master, Trifle
Card text:
Put this card in play. Remove all Fragment of Ashur's Tablets AND Ashur's Tablet in play from the game when you have 3 Fragments of Ashur's Tablets in play to gain 1 pool and you may select up to 5 cards in your ashheap and reshuffle them into your library.

The tech to recycle cards is not flawed, however 13 cards is over the top imho.

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength
Last edit: 27 Jul 2014 05:45 by GreyB.

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27 Jul 2014 06:48 #64134 by Juggernaut1981

I liked Jeff Kuta's idea, "Fragment of Ashur's Tablet" that could return the AT competition. Something along the line of:

Fragment of Ashur's Tablet, Master, Trifle
Card text:
Put this card in play. Remove all Fragment of Ashur's Tablets AND Ashur's Tablet in play from the game when you have 3 Fragments of Ashur's Tablets in play to gain 1 pool and you may select up to 5 cards in your ashheap and reshuffle them into your library.

The tech to recycle cards is not flawed, however 13 cards is over the top imho.

This idea it terrible for two big reasons:
1) It is a silver bullet, right out of the Villein playbook.
2) It doesn't have enough reason for you to play it other than stopping others playing it, which is the main reason why people put Pentex Subversion and Giant's Blood into most decks.

Tech to recycle cards has been sitting at:
1) RFG the card you play and it is some form of action.
2) 4 cards at most.
3) No secondary benefit to card recycling.

People already object to Anthelios and it is 'trade a Master for a Master'. You rarely see Summon Soul played. Sudario Refraction is not particularly common. Reinforcements is rarely played. Fragment isn't commonly played. WMO is rare, mostly because !Brujah are rare and it is worth its slot when it is drawn early.


As a constructive point, we should drop the power of Ashur Tablets.
Most common suggestions are:
1) Restrict the cards it can return, let it give you pool.
2) Let it give you unrestricted cards, and no pool.
3) Restrict the cards it can return and no pool.
4) Nerf it to the point where it is banned by proxy (depowered so it is left out of decks)
5) Just ban it outright to avoid the errata problems.

"New card solutions" all end up advocating for silver bullets or some form of punitive carpet bomb on MMPA.

:bruj::CEL::POT::PRE::tha: Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

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27 Jul 2014 07:24 - 27 Jul 2014 07:31 #64137 by KevinM
Replied by KevinM on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

I have said many times that Pascal is one of the hardest working members of the Inner Circle. (And lately Gines, who I'm sure spends more time getting art together than designers spend mulling over cards.)

How would you know? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

If the decision were solely up to him, I think he'd make the right one. But there are other pressures that will block any decision to ban cards that people have bought out of packs. Those are things beyond Pascal's control.

What "other pressures"?? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

I think that you've caused enough damage around here and your minor contributions are far outweighed by your constant scab-picking and trolling the good, hard-working volunteers or this community. I had thought that MAYBE you had put all of this filth behind you. It saddens me deeply to see that I was wrong.

What a shame that you are still mentally ill with lingering paranoia and lashing out at the ones that you believe hurt you with both subtle and unjustified accusations is still your prime motivating factor.

MODERATORS: I'm calling for a public forum and serious consideration to ban Jeff Kuta from this website unless a public apology is given from his for his continued unjustified accusations against the various parties involved. His presence HURTS this website and his unjustified accusations are borderline libelous.

When one finds cancer, one cuts out the cancer. Jeff Kuta is a cancer on this website and on the game that we all love and his continued actions prove that he cares for neither.

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
Last edit: 27 Jul 2014 07:31 by KevinM.

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27 Jul 2014 07:48 - 27 Jul 2014 07:50 #64138 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

I have said many times that Pascal is one of the hardest working members of the Inner Circle. (And lately Gines, who I'm sure spends more time getting art together than designers spend mulling over cards.)

How would you know? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

If the decision were solely up to him, I think he'd make the right one. But there are other pressures that will block any decision to ban cards that people have bought out of packs. Those are things beyond Pascal's control.

What "other pressures"?? Stop the unjustified accusations, please, or leave forever and never come back.

I think that you've caused enough damage around here and your minor contributions are far outweighed by your constant scab-picking and trolling the good, hard-working volunteers or this community. I had thought that MAYBE you had put all of this filth behind you. It saddens me deeply to see that I was wrong.

What a shame that you are still mentally ill with lingering paranoia and lashing out at the ones that you believe hurt you with both subtle and unjustified accusations is still your prime motivating factor.

MODERATORS: I'm calling for a public forum and serious consideration to ban Jeff Kuta from this website unless a public apology is given from his for his continued unjustified accusations against the various parties involved. His presence HURTS this website and his unjustified accusations are borderline libelous.

When one finds cancer, one cuts out the cancer. Jeff Kuta is a cancer on this website and on the game that we all love and his continued actions prove that he cares for neither.


Erm... Perhaps you should actually read the quotes you quoted... Seems to me that Jeff said nothing disrespectful nor anything close to an accusation... As someone new to these forums I just have to step back and marvel at these petty squables that make no sense...

ps. would be nice if this turned into a constructive thread!!! *HINT HINT*

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength
Last edit: 27 Jul 2014 07:50 by GreyB.

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27 Jul 2014 07:49 #64139 by cordovader

So yes, you agree with me that Ashur Tablets allows you to redesign the ratio of cards in your deck while playing the deck. Darby, ICL and myself claim that this card is the equivalent of sideboarding during the game, something never otherwise done in VTES and rarely done even in MtG (AFAIK).


Not that rarely done in MtG. At one point there where some decks playing it, being one archetype the most played of the set:

gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&name=+[wish]+[wish]&set=+[%22Judgment%22]

You have 5 cards that do that, no one complained (AFAIK).

Liquidation + AT is one gamebreaking combination, it's a prime example on how AT can be abused. Liquidation by itself is not overpowered, burning 7 cards for 3 pool is quite a sacrifice.

There's no denying however that AT enables a lot more powerful combinations and it DOES provide an in-game sidedeck, such is the design of the card. The only downside of the card is pulling it off before someone else does.


And again: which are the facts that back your assessment?

ATs have other downsides:
-You're stopping playing other master cards (so you're choosing ATs from other masters you could play)
-ATs decks have usually a lower proportion of useful cards for the beginning of the game, being this proportion corrected during the game (being slower at the beginning and having a better cardflow towards the end of the game)
-Different to MtG, the "silver bullets" are packed inside the deck, so if you draw them and they're no use, you're jamming your hand
-Depending on deckbuilding, playstyle and table situation you can arrive to be completely handjammend, with at least 5 masters and being able to do nothing

Fragment of Ashur's Tablet, Master, Trifle
Card text:
Put this card in play. Remove all Fragment of Ashur's Tablets AND Ashur's Tablet in play from the game when you have 3 Fragments of Ashur's Tablets in play to gain 1 pool and you may select up to 5 cards in your ashheap and reshuffle them into your library.


Now that's dumb, it's even a better card than ATs...

Tech to recycle cards has been sitting at:
1) RFG the card you play and it is some form of action.
2) 4 cards at most.
3) No secondary benefit to card recycling.


Why should that mean no new cards/designs allowed?

As always, no rational argument from your side, just subjective opinions.

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27 Jul 2014 08:23 #64140 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

ATs have other downsides:
-You're stopping playing other master cards (so you're choosing ATs from other masters you could play)
-ATs decks have usually a lower proportion of useful cards for the beginning of the game, being this proportion corrected during the game (being slower at the beginning and having a better cardflow towards the end of the game)
-Different to MtG, the "silver bullets" are packed inside the deck, so if you draw them and they're no use, you're jamming your hand
-Depending on deckbuilding, playstyle and table situation you can arrive to be completely handjammend, with at least 5 masters and being able to do nothing


That goes for every single card in the game... Masters can at least be solved by being able to play multiple masters per turn, which is not hard to achieve... Ever had 7 bum's rushes as a starting hand? :P

Any MtG reference is moot, it's another game with another flow and coincidently also a game that addressed massive card recursion back in the 90s if you like to keep on comparing.

Now that's dumb, it's even a better card than ATs...


Yes and no, you sacrifice 3 card slots to return 5 (4 is ok too) cards as opposed to 3 cards to return 13 cards. Easier to play, earn less pool and makes Liquidation + FoAT not that rewarding. Ideal for pro-active combat decks that burn a lot of cards and less ideal for MMPA decks. Both can exists side by side but now with the actual designed downside (as far as I can see). But I leave this up to designers, in any case, the downside of AT needs to return some way or the other.

And again: which are the facts that back your assessment?


Liquidation + AT can function outside of the natural gameflow, you can keep doing this while your vamps work on defense and ousting, which is quite possible without depending on any masters whatsoever. The combination has no effect on the gameflow whatsoever like Villein/Vessel/Minion tap/Blooddol have, those cards pull blood from your vampires to your pool, making the vamps more vulnerable. But poolgain is not the only thing this combination offers, you can recycle cards adjusted to the meta of the game as you go at the same time, so it's pool gain + specialising your deck to beat the meta at the same time. This takes no actions and thus can't be blocked, no disciplines (playable by any deck) and the only means to counter it is a shitload of suddens or some fringe card that hardly gets played.

If you see nothing wrong with that... well... Than I doubt any argument ever will convince you... But that's ok, I am not here to win any debate. I just hope designers of the next PDF set will read all arguments for and against and make this game more balanced and fun for all either way ;)

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength

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