file Balancing Ashur Tablets

25 Jul 2014 15:19 #64062 by ReverendRevolver
I still stand firm that girls style mmpa is the broken component here, not the tablets, which are simply very good.

Something being "balanced" by a whole table killing it isnt really balanced. Imbued can in theory be dealt with this way, but sometimez that one player lets them set up a little too much, and then the game is wrecked until 5 turns from the end.
The Nergal storyline deck is even worse about this. And its not tourney legal. So, again, if we have all seen good decks with ashurs still get beaten routinely, but one other style really break things, that sounds like a problem beyond one card.

The table shouldnt have to deal with 50 pool. Mikkel had a Journal of Hrosh deck that gained mad pool that was less a burden than girls mmpa. Unless someones playing gesla harden and kindred spirits to always cross table trochomancy, girls will work and gain pool.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
25 Jul 2014 17:19 #64071 by AaronC
Replied by AaronC on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets


As Ankha pointed out, Villein is a triffle card, played on 47% of the TWDs. Should we ban it given that there's already a card that does a similar effect (Minion Tap)?


Yes!

Comparing to the combination AT + Liquidation, we could compare also Villein + Voter Cap, being the pool reward of Villein + Voter Cap far more unbalancing in most cases than AT + Liquidation.


Voter Cap is also bad, and the issue isn't the pool gain of AT. You've brushed off the recursion aspect by saying, "That should be the debate." The debate isn't whether recursion is bad, the debate is at what scale recursion becomes bad.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ashur

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
25 Jul 2014 17:58 #64073 by Jeff Kuta

I think you very successfully attempted to plumb the depths of mediocrity in your own designs, but don't forget, interesting and potentially powerful does not have to break the game or result in power-creep as long as we are adding in a diversity of ways of actually achieving the goal. Danse Macabre had some good examples of that.


Keep up with the sycophantic trolling. That seems to be your favorite medium to express your clever ideas.

The risk associated with Ashur Tablets is rather low. Opportunity costs are not huge, and as you said there are relatively few in print for the 'table clear' effect to be frequent and damaging to others Ashur Tablets. And of course the risk-reward equation is in favour of playing them... I'm suggesting the rewards are too good.


The card that breaks Ashur Tablets isn't Ashur Tablets. It's Liquidation. A simple first turn Master card that gives 3 pool with almost no drawback is what creates the bloat issues that keeps Girls MMPA decks alive. Successfully popping Ashur Tablets requires 3 MPAs and no "contesting" of the tablets. That's a scarcity issue, not a power issue.

So thank you for confirming it Jeff.


Misreading again, as always.

Your reply to ICL just confirms the other claim I made, that it allows in-game sideboarding or as Darby put it Card Probability Set restructuring in game.


Claim? Thank you Captain Obvious. Ashur Tablets was clearly designed to allow you to retune your deck from the ash heap.

Sometimes its nice to have a chance to make a smart decision in game that may pay off down the road. Many people would rather have 3x Villein, or 3x Dreams of the Sphinx, or 3x Sudden Reversal than 3x Ashur Tablets in their deck.

Another way to put the same idea is that if you built a toolbox, you can now 'un-toolbox' it by redrawing the parts of the toolbox that are more effective in the environment and convert a toolbox into a S&B or Combat Wall or Vote-Push deck during the game.


Congratulations on discovering the wonders of using Ashur Tablets. Now go proxy some and use them more often and understand their real drawbacks!

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
:CEL::DOM::OBF::POT::QUI:
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
The following user(s) said Thank You: cordovader

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
25 Jul 2014 18:07 #64074 by Jeff Kuta

1. No more chunk of minutes lost when Ashurs go off as player decides which 13 cards to choose. (Or fewer minutes, if the player is one of those who is not capable of shuffling expeditiously.)


If anything, this is the biggest drawback to Ashur Tablets.

2. No more late-game virtual sideboarding/deck optimization, which breaks a basic paradigm of the CCG genre.

It has always seemed to me that Ashur Tablets were meant to be tech for decks that actually ran out of cards. I think that's reasonable, and needed, especially for combat decks that cycle a lot of red and need a pool boost late in the game. The ability to retune your deck at will late in the game, and burning up precious minutes while you do so, is not reasonable.


The burning up precious minutes may not be reasonable since some players take way too long to sift through their ash heap, especially late in the game. Tuning your deck has been part of the game since Day 1 with Magic of the Smith, Al's Army Apparatus, Arms Dealer, and Vast Wealth. Searching isn't the same as recursion, but it isn't unusual. "The Other Game" had Regrowth and has much more recursion now. Is that a problem?

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
:CEL::DOM::OBF::POT::QUI:
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
The following user(s) said Thank You: cordovader

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
25 Jul 2014 18:11 #64075 by Jeff Kuta

The table shouldnt have to deal with 50 pool.


If gaining pool is the real issue, then Ashur Tablets contribution to that issue is minimal and indirect.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
:CEL::DOM::OBF::POT::QUI:
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
The following user(s) said Thank You: cordovader

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
25 Jul 2014 18:12 #64076 by Jeff Kuta

As Ankha pointed out, Villein is a triffle card, played on 47% of the TWDs. Should we ban it given that there's already a card that does a similar effect (Minion Tap)?

Yes!


No card that anyone bought from a pack for will ever be banned while the current administration is in charge.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
:CEL::DOM::OBF::POT::QUI:
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.117 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum