file Combat as a strategy

21 Aug 2019 10:49 - 21 Aug 2019 10:52 #96443 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Combat as a strategy

TwoRazorReign wrote: I disagree with the moderator --

I will put out the first kindles of a flame war where I see one. If there is anything new someone wants to add to the topic, that is allowed.

Moderators and admins maintain these guidelines and see to that they are followed. Their word is final.


"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

Facebook @ VtES: Joensuu
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Last edit: 21 Aug 2019 10:52 by Kraus.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, PetriWessman, TwoRazorReign

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2019 14:23 #96449 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Combat as a strategy

Kraus wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote: I disagree with the moderator --

I will put out the first kindles of a flame war where I see one. If there is anything new someone wants to add to the topic, that is allowed.

Moderators and admins maintain these guidelines and see to that they are followed. Their word is final.


This is very fair. I will try again and strictly add to the topic.

I disagree with the assertion made in the original (split) post that the essence of VTES is the predator-prey relationship, and that combat breaks this dynamic. This dynamic was meant to be broken from day 1 to incorporate themes from the source material (V:tM). I will now attempt to back up my claim.

The Jyhad rulebook described the object of the game as the following:

Each player, through intrigue, worldly political maneuvers, and exercise of supernatural abilities, exerts influence over less powerful vampires and, by extension, over the humans and animals they might command. You use those you influence as pawns in the game of Jyhad, where your opponents are other Methuselahs. Your goal is to use your minions to destroy the influence the other Methuselahs hold over their minions. Influence is
measured by blood counters, the main currency of the game. When a player's blood pool is out of blood…he or she is bereft of influence and ousted from the game."

Note that there is no mention of accumulating victory points here, or how one wins the game. This was intentional.

The object of the game has since been changed to the current one below:

"Your goal is to accumulate the most victory points by destroying the influence held by rival Methuselahs. You accomplish this goal by using your influence to gain control of younger vampires and using those vampires to take actions to reduce the influence of rival Methuselahs. Influence is represented by pool counters (see Equipment Needed, sec. 1.2), the main currency of the game. When a Methuselah runs out of pool counters, she* is bereft of influence and ousted from the game. As Methuselahs are ousted, players earn victory points; the winner is the player with the most victory points at the end of the game

My argument is that the original object was stated in Jyhad intentionally to include themes from V:tM into VTES: unruly Methuselahs messing up everyone’s plans, spiteful actions taken intentionally with full knowledge that a third party will take advantage, stubborn Methuselahs refusing to take actions, etc. So, by stating “combat destroys the game” because it disrupts the predator-prey relationship, one should realize that these destructive elements were intentionally incorporated. Granted, these elements might not make for a great game on a competitive basis (hence the object of the game being updated since Jyhad), but I do believe they were ingenious for the time and still work great in casual play where people don't care who wins and are okay with randomness. It would be a shame to completely remove these elements.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Valas66

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2019 16:30 #96451 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Combat as a strategy
I dont think it really matters what the initial goals or intentions are for vtes. Elotar tells us that he plays vtes because of the predator prey dynamic (presumably obliterating prey and withstanding predator) and we should just accept that. We have all seen combat decks ruining games so it shouldn't be hard to understand what he is saying.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2019 17:03 #96452 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Combat as a strategy
Oh, sure, I can see elotar's point. If you're less inclined to roleplay being a Methuselah and more inclined for the game to have a clear path to victory, then yes, combat may ruin the game for you. But, if you're not a competitive hardo and would rather role play being an ancient vampire (which incidentally was probably the original intention for the game), then combat as currently (and originally) constituted is really not going to ruin the game for you. Thus I would argue not to fundamentally change combat, which is the crux of my disagreement with elotar's original post.

I totally have not "seen combat decks ruining games." but I also play the game very, very non-competitively when I do get the rare chance to play.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2019 19:39 #96454 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Combat as a strategy

TwoRazorReign wrote: I totally have not "seen combat decks ruining games." but I also play the game very, very non-competitively when I do get the rare chance to play.


When you sit behind combat deck and all your guys go to torpor it can easily feel like you just lost a coin flip. Not sure how different this is from sitting in front of weenies with a slower deck or winning the no predator lottery. That's just part of the 'charm' of multiplayer games.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Aug 2019 19:47 - 21 Aug 2019 19:49 #96455 by Pritoos
Replied by Pritoos on topic Combat as a strategy
In my playgroup, we have seen more bleeding focused decks ruining games than combat focused decks doing it. Of course, I do not claim this experience to be more valuable than any other, but I share it so that it can be considered.

In fact, being the prey of a powerbleeder can be more frustrating than having your vampires regularly visited. If your predator is deeply pressed, his only way to act can be running directly towards your throat, and with bad luck you can be ousted quite fast, definitely an npe experience.

In my opinion, combat is not a npe-engine by itself. But certain features can cause problems. The fact that certain combat monsters like enkidu or leatherbeast can attack vampires every single turn can be really annoying.

For reasons not related to this topic, we have decided in my playgroup to use only cards published by BC. We do this in order to create a newbie-friendly environment for our two recently abducted pals, and we find combat is a funny and colorful mechanic that adds quite a rich dimension to our games, even without grapples (yet). I find it may be thanks to the unavailability of such kind of cards.

For us, combat is just as core to the game as any other feature.
Last edit: 21 Aug 2019 19:49 by Pritoos.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.151 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum