PCK Laibon Set Round 3 of Playtesting has Concluded

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

So "Yes, this is a stop gap" is the summary of this answer.

No, it's not a stop gap. It is a *solution*.

By your logic, Telepathic Counter is a stop gap to Telepathic Misdirection. In fact, any card is a stop gap to another if they are similar in functionality.

Just because people have made discipline cards (and I have also done that) it doesn't immediately connect disciplines to the individual copies of Divergent Evolution. Of course, Sect-based cards/counters could be created for cards like The Embrace, Tumnimos, etc.

Ok...so then, just use discipline cards? Seems like you're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. In fact, you're suggesting making more complications too.

So because !Gangrels have Black Spiral Buddy, they are more connected to the Wyrm (a Werewolf figure) than other vampires? What occurs to their infernalism, does it vanish with the card?

No. That's not what the card says. Just like Barbaro Luchese does with his actions, the vampire becomes Infernal. Track it how you like. Make a special counter for it if you want.

So this card hedges your bets quite drastically. If you can't block you automatically get a bleed reduce equal to your number of minions? So having a swarm of !Nos basically means you cannot ever be ousted by S&B or Block-fails Powerbleed?

I think the card is fine because it is the number of *untapped* minions that are counted. Drastically is a matter of opinion. Or hyperbole. You throw around a lot of adverbs. You know, you could have participated in the PCK play test last year and provided feedback then to nudge cards closer to your acceptable levels.

It isn't a particularly great card at any rate. Dealing with Inquisitor by increments seems like a way to guarantee it remains an obscurity.

Sour grapes?

Or, dealing with Inquisitor by increments is a way to ease in changes to an existing keyword with a lot of potential while not breaking things in the process. Please note that none of the Guardians of the Faith cards deal with disciplines---intentionally and consciously---so we avoided the law of unintended consequences.

Was this sort of thing tested specifically with Gratiano in mind?

Really? You even have to ask? It certainly doesn't seem to me that you have forthright or honest intentions in mind and are just trying to cast as many aspersions as you possibly can. Again, join our next playtest if you want to participate. It is always open.

Actually, I am suggesting, why bother...

It would seem more sensible to flesh out the whole idea or to leave it gathering dust.

Why not? You post your own card ideas on the forum all the time. Carl, Eric and I wanted to do an incremental approach and focus on a limited number of things for GotF. Once we felt we had that right, we went big with our Laibon set. Have you seen the previews? We have already shown 34 cards and there are plenty more yet to come.

Some people seem to like them. We had another record-setting day for page views today---two days in a row. Thanks Italy and Hungary!

Jeff wrote:

Some people seem to like them. We had another record-setting day for page views today---two days in a row. Thanks Italy and Hungary!

But getting hits isn't the same as actually liking the stuff.

So I have to refrain from going to the site to just check the stuff since I'd be automatically counted towards "liking" the expansion

@Jeff
[Edited in note later: Please ignore typos below. Screaming babies and one handed typing aren't the friends of good spelling.]

RE: Sour Grapes

Nope. I went and did my own concept for Inquisitors and before the distraction of a newborn derailed me, I had nearly 50-cards, publicly available and open for feedback. 20 vamps, nearly 30 library cards. I do intend to finish the 50. They aren't "canon VTES cards" so I'm fine with saying mine aren't set in stone. So it can be done and three guys should be able to do the same task sooner if they can work as a solid team. If it is a worthwhile idea, then it is worth fully fleshing out.
(You can find those cards here: sites.google.com/site/juggernaut1981svtesdownloads/home/vtes-card-creations/infidels)

RE: Playtesting

Didn't have the tome then and haven't got the time or the inclination to test your cards with actual play. Also don't have enough players who would want to do so in my group. So joining your playtest is pointless on both ends. Also, since your cards are non "canon VTES" then they can always be improved and amended.

Do I need to ask if a card for Priscii has been tested with Gratiano? Sure. And there'd be no reason for such as hostile answer if you were sure your testing was thorough and extensive. The reason for the question is about making sure that a powerful minion doesn't become very powerful.

RE: Visits

Plenty of people slow down to observe car crashes. Plenty of people attend football games. Plenty of people buy mindless formulaic pop music. Plenty of people buy artists who spend more time and thought on their art. Popularity is no measure of quality or approval.

RE: Card Ideas

Yeah I post card ideas. I also argue for them hard and improve not just the card but my own development processes, or at least I hope and think so. I haven't been tried to pass them off as anything more than card ideas or sets of card ideas. And I think you three are stepping of very problematic legal territory by placing your names as copyright on those cards.


RE: Stop Gaps

It is an inferior solution. An unblocked action for a clan with no easy cheap stealth is a steep cost for a card which also costs blood. It thematically seems weak as well. The connection between "rule by force" and reduction in losses is thin; anti-flick makes plenty of sense.

RE: Drastically
Actually not hyperbole. Three minions (easily Embraces or other Weenies) can be put out, knowingly unable to block the action due to stealth from the S&B or for Croc's Tongue/Block Fails and reduce each bleed by 3 for no blood cost. Or at worst you block the bleed and it becomes basically a zero bleed. Also it would screw up Form of Mist bleeds as well.

brettscho wrote:

Ohlmann wrote:

It's a simple but more importantly a stupid question. Or a rethoric trap, depending on you prefering to be considered as stupid or as manipulative.

Ohlmann - Got to say, pretty shocked at how much you hate these cards. You must either be very passionate about this game, or a very... aggressive person in general. Not sure what you are trying to communicate other than that you think these cards are the worst thing to ever happen to VTES. If that is all you want to say, allow me to assure you that it has been fully communicated. If you have something else you want to mention, you need to spell it out better for slow people like me.

Ok, maybe he is too harsh in his choice of word. BUT, he is still right : the question is silly by the inner design of the priscus title.

The question achieve nothing in regard to the assertion "archibishop are better than priscii". They are just differents and IMO, there is a lot of cases in which I would choose a priscus instead of an archbishop with everything else identical.

The goal of designing new cards is not IMO to make everything identical. It would be horribly boring...

And here is an other question would you rather have 2 ventrue justicar or 2 prince?

My answer is 2 princes and yet when I influence Victor pelletier I nearly allways chose Justicar over prince of Paris even when it cost me an additional pool.

brettscho wrote:

Ohlmann - Got to say, pretty shocked at how much you hate these cards. You must either be very passionate about this game, or a very... aggressive person in general.

Have I said something about the cards ? No. I just chimed in because Jeff Kuta was using comically bad arguments including using Cardinal benediction on freakin' priscus because priscus are somehow worst than archbishop. I singled out the most absurd one for me, and as I supposed, he prefer trying to defend it than admit that he could be wrong. The rest of his argument tend to be pretty absurd at time too when you think about a bit.

I didn't look at the current batch of card at all. The first one were pretty bad on average with some good idea, and Jeff and co did everything they could to prove the VEKN was right to throw them out of the planned expansion. The current level of "argumentation" he use when people point out drawback, and the fact he never said "that's a good point" or anything lead me to think that the set will be a disaster. But that's my opinion, and I don't really believe I would look at thoses card objectively, so I don't look at them at all.

My answer is 2 princes and yet when I influence Victor pelletier I nearly allways chose Justicar over prince of Paris even when it cost me an additional pool.

Probably beacause you don't plan to bring out another Ventrue Justicar. Same when deckbuilding, you would rarely include a second priscus if you plan on voting. PCK tried to make prisci-based crypt possible, which is commendable and I lack the understanding, why expanding the options of the games is bad. I ahve to agree, side effects have to be avoided, but those are somewhat easy to check and test. Side effects aside, I fail to see how introducing prisci-archetype is game breaking. Even more, Cammarila Prince or No Secrets from Magaji archetypes are there, but I am not familiar with worthwhile alternative for the Sabbat.