Submission: Celerity Refinement

Timo wrote:

Kraus wrote:

There is no combat offensive combo in Earth Meld. Unless, once again, if you're Enkidu and Psyche away.

That's exactly my point. And it costs 2 cards. And the effect is still worth it so decks using and abusing this combo exist since some times now. And you propose to do both with a little bonus with one card ! No thank you !

"That's like, your opinion man."
-Dat meme from da Webz. 20XX

Not that I don't agree with you, but there's another squad who already thinks that Inner Circle multi action is stupid as f... allout 76. And they're not wrong either.

And once we go down the rabbit hole of arguing which is more "hurtful" to the game, there's no end to it. Eventually someone will name drop Pentex Subversion, and then we're actually in Fallout 76. Ain't no one got time for that.

Celerity has always had a pretty cool way of giving out unlock effects that are super situational. Zephyr has yet to find an actually good place in the meta, but Flurry of Action is definitely "da shit" in the correct niche. That said, I do understand if a multi-purpose unlock tool would be frowned upon, but as befits celerity's design, a reasonably high blood cost should rein it in. On the other hand combat only unlock effect fits the theme of design as well.

They could both work, and design wise aren't too far off. Opportunity and blood costs probably could use some work, and worst case scenarios in deck building should be checked. I guess it's IC multi act (if no fortitude) for the action modifier, and multi rush stars for the combat variant.

jblacey wrote:

Timo wrote:

You can have a different opinion than someone else without the other being wrong or saying "false statement".

True, but this isn't an opinion. Card draw is a well defined advantage.

And it's still an opinion that that not happening is an unalloyed good.

A significant problem faced by many combat decks is that they do very well at obliterating vampires, but they can upset table balance in awkward ways. Lockdown decks that stop their prey doing much at all can have similar issues(*).

If you kill your prey's vampires to death and keep their hand chock full of rubbish, their few remaining vampires will have a much harder time putting pressure on your grand-prey. Often, you want to do things like take out the bouncers, or whoever the most troublesome vampires are, but still let them put some pressure on your grand-prey, in order to avoid letting her run the table with no effective predator. To some extent, your relationship with your predator can be in a similar (though different) position. You probably don't want your grand-predator to face a predator whose hands are chock full of unplayed S:CE, meaning that they don't draw into the Wakes that would let them defend themselves (or whatever) - though there is different tension here, because you obviously want to survive.

Intercept decks can face an analogous set of choices, in that although they don't necessarily cause other decks card drawing issues - even though you're going to block, I can play the action card, some action modifiers, and some combat cards in the same action - they can do funny things to table balance if they block everything, even though Methuselahs getting actions through is usually considered a good thing for that Methuselah. If you block everything, maybe your predator can't tool up with their defensive options to hold off their grand-predator, maybe your grand-prey gets very little pressure on them if you don't allow any of the breed actions to succeed or the Crusades to be called, and so on.

So yes, being able to cycle cards may "help" that other Methuselah - but for reasons of making sure that no-one else on the table gets a free ride, that may be help that you want them to have. Otherwise a short-term ruthless ousting of your prey with extreme prejudice may thwart your longer term ambitions for the Game Win.


(*) Plus, in the case of heavy use of Sensory Deprivation, you may find your vampires run out of blood quickly. But that's a slightly separate issue.

James, that is all true. That is, however, a player's choice of action and strategy, and what to actually do with the cards they have. Even if cards enable stuff doesn't mean you have to always do the stuff. It's often a great thing for your deck if the cards allow you to do said stuff.

Ultimately it's a poor choice (often) to 100% cripple a player unless you know 100% what you're doing. That, I think, has very little to do with card in this game. You can do that with so many cards. It's a player choice to do stuff with their cards.

Generally, if you want a player to stay in the game, you don't wreck their game. If you want to, however, you have to have the stuff to do that, and for combat decks Psyche and IG work. A bit differently, but they do.

I do agree with you guys in that it's practically impossible to separate 'truth' (whatever that is) and opinion in this case, so those are probably not the best choice of words. Too many variables.

So, to be completely honest, I don't see the point you're trying to make. As I see it, as a control deck (wall or combat) you either let someone do stuff, or use your own stuff to deny them. It's a player choice, not card choice. The middle ground is handled with politics.

Kraus wrote:

James, that is all true. That is, however, a player's choice of action and strategy, and what to actually do with the cards they have. Even if cards enable stuff doesn't mean you have to always do the stuff. It's often a great thing for your deck if the cards allow you to do said stuff.

Oh, absolutely, much of this is about choice and strategy and tactics. Once you've built your deck, though, if your only tool for dealing with S:CE is Immortal Grapple or Dog Pack, and not Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking (or whatever else), then your options are constrained to using what you've got. You can't easily take the "let them cycle their cards a bit" option, even if you want to, if you've only got reliable access to IG in your deck.

A lot can also depend on your personal play-style - some players are much more laid back and willing to let the game play itself out and pounce at just the right time, vs other players who want to move and shake things up themselves. The former is more likely to benefit from other players being able to do their thing. An alternative playstyle dimension to think about would be players who like to control the whole table (and/or play for sweeps), vs players who are less concerned that that Giovanni powerbleed deck over there is about to get a VP.

Kraus wrote:

So yeah, I should've said 'better in most aggressive ousting metas' instead of 'always better' when comparing IG and Psyche. If (as has been the trend) S:CE is mostly just novelty and splashed in ones or twos in a voter deck, I think it's fair to assume people will splash more Psyche in their combat deck than votes will pack S:CE. If people actually use a large amount of S:CE for combat defense, IG works.

You're argument here falls flat because IG also works just as well in situations where there's only a few S:CE as when there's lots of S:CE, whereas Psyche! only works as well as IG when there's only a few S:CE. You're (inadvertently?) arguing that Psyche! is more situational than IG. I'm trying to figure out how you can say that this makes Psyche! the better card.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Kraus wrote:

So yeah, I should've said 'better in most aggressive ousting metas' instead of 'always better' when comparing IG and Psyche. If (as has been the trend) S:CE is mostly just novelty and splashed in ones or twos in a voter deck, I think it's fair to assume people will splash more Psyche in their combat deck than votes will pack S:CE. If people actually use a large amount of S:CE for combat defense, IG works.

You're argument here falls flat because IG also works just as well in situations where there's only a few S:CE as when there's lots of S:CE, whereas Psyche! only works as well as IG when there's only a few S:CE. You're (inadvertently?) arguing that Psyche! is more situational than IG. I'm trying to figure out how you can say that this makes Psyche! the better card.

Only in that Psyche doesn't make you 'miss' combat cards that you often play up front (as you often play it with constant numbers), it doubles as free manouvers in .44, and, the main point:

In a low numbered combat ends meta it's better to let them burn through their one or two S:CE if they have more than one vampire than deny them the use and let them use against your next rush. In that situation it's better than IG. Even if they get to cycle them. In that case, basically, you'll need 1 IG for every combat, where as only 1 Psyche per S:CE in deck will be sufficient, and if there's few S:CE, you'll need less Psyche.

Also no range restrictions, but that ties more into the combat package and damage output method than Psyche or IG, so yeah.

But there's been a case made for IG previously in this thread, and I buy that reasoning. I'm not contesting that.

I probably should try playing a potence deck again for a change just to see if anything can be done with the discipline... Packing IG as well of course. It's been ages since I last even saw the card. Psyche and Tele Tracking have been popping up frequently.

Potence makes me sad as a whole.

But here, this all has nothing to do with celerity unlock cards. Back to business?