exclamation-circle Submission: Celerity Refinement

18 Mar 2019 23:08 #94146 by TwoRazorReign

I genuinely do not understand how people say that Immortal Grapple is better against S:CE than Psyche.


In terms of cost and card cycling, Immortal Grapple is just better. If you rush and are using Psyche!, you have to guess if S:CE is coming and either hang on to a bunch of combat cards in anticipation of combat ending before strike resolution, effectively clogging your hand if there is no S:CE, or pay for a bunch of combat cards in anticipation of no S:CE that end up doing nothing if there is S:CE. With Immortal Grapple, if you rush, there's no worry about any of this.

Now, if you instead mean that IG combat is not any better than Cel Guns combat, that's a different story, but even then, they're arguably equal.
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18 Mar 2019 23:22 #94147 by Lech

Celerity don't wreak s:ce, at best it's 1 for 1, potence wreak s:ce (as enemy can't play one). And while it would enable Enkidu, it would also enable a lot of other wallpapered vampires, and my version isn't as limitless as you want to make it look like (first cost 0, second 1, third 2).

I'm getting a bit side tracked here, so bear with me.

I genuinely do not understand how people say that Immortal Grapple is better against S:CE than Psyche. They enable different kinds of combat, but if you use them in decks that use them best, effectively 'canceling' an enemy card is always better than not giving them option to play them.

Torn Signpost + IG + Disarm: check, you got rid of a vampire. If they get rescued or they have another, they still have the S:CE in hand (in case you don't have unlimited IGs).


You get rid of vampire, no matter how many s:ce they have. They also don't cycle. It also give a press. It shut down some combat strats. Useful at :pot:

.44 + Blur + Psyche: check, you got rid of a vampire (most likely empty now). They burned through a S:CE, which you got past with a Psyche. Now they don't have the S:CE anymore for future.


They cycle, you have to get enough psyches to deal with enemy s:ce, useless at :cel:

As for the card suggestions, Earth Meld would for sure be better than the combat version of the suggested card. Earth Meld is a defensive card. The suggested card would be offensive. They work for different deck types.

So I dunno, as said, both suggestions would be strong, but are completely different by design and enable different decks. :) It really depends on which sorts of archetypes would deserve help more. IMO they could both be printed (granted, with play testing).


Sure, one empower decks that already have not many problems (decks with stealth that make successful actions) and the second empower decks that struggle today (low-stealth that do some blocking or multi-rush).

The only problem is concealed weapon, should only work with weapon up to 1 pool cost.

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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19 Mar 2019 00:36 - 19 Mar 2019 00:38 #94148 by Timo

Well, I thought it was not needed to explain why this proposal was way better than Earth Meld (which is already a very good card).

Free and limitless untap are OP when it enables multi action à la Una Freak Show.


It's not better than earth meld, it require you to play other combat enablers UNLIKE earth meld that just make you ignore combat.


Yes, Earth meld is a defensive card unlike this proposal which makes all the difference. If nobody comes to you, you will not have the opportunity to play your earth meld and so, playing a lot of them becomes useless.

And you can't just go full una as there are no-repeat actions, and there is limited amount of enter combat actions in the game,


Looking for "enter combat" with amaranth and limiting myself to cards playing by Enkidu effectively :
Ambush
Big Game
Bum's Rush
Charge of the Buffalo
Deep Song
Fleetness
Harass
Rumble
Sense Death
Taunt the Caged Beast
Enkidu card text (obviously)

Which makes 11 unique way to enter combat. Assuming you pack 2 of the best ones (Big Game, Bum's Rush, Deep Song, Rumble, Sense Death and Taunt the Caged Beast) you have 16 action cards to enter combat + Enkidu card text. Which is believe me enough to wreack havoc on the table. Enkidu having +2 strength and :POT: :CEL: :PRO: :ANI: :for: you have a lot of options to make a very efficient combat package (especially with resist earth grasp and blur being free).

and even if it would be good, it's still combat that can be shut down by other combat. You are just against it because your decks don't play enough combat defence and you are not willing to change it (wild guess, btw).


Well, guess again, I am mostly these years on the other side of the board with 2 of my main decks recently being Ghede multi rush and Kurshid Multi Rush. And believe me, if FD were free, it would be way to good. (there is a good reason why free untaps come with a restriction of only 1 per turn with the exception of Crimethinc which requires an action requiring an anarch)

I'm somehow sceptical about claims that multi-rush with the card would bring unfun meta.


I'm somehow sceptical about claims that easy and free multi rush would bring fun meta.

And by the way, if this card go to playtest, I would be more than happy to kick some ass with it and make my point.
Last edit: 19 Mar 2019 00:38 by Timo.

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19 Mar 2019 00:37 - 19 Mar 2019 00:40 #94149 by jblacey

They enable different kinds of combat, but if you use them in decks that use them best, effectively 'canceling' an enemy card is always better than not giving them option to play them.


This is a false statement. Preventing a player from cycling a card is one of the most brutal mechanics you can do to someone in V:tES. The only thing worse is removing a card from someone's deck. Incidentally, this is also part of the reason that Ashur Tablets are so absurd. You are putting a card in your hand and cycling.

Short Aside: I have killed political decks with a full hand of S:CE end that could never draw into their votes with IG and that does *not* happen with Pysche. They are fundamentally different cards. If anything, Pysche is a more "fair" combat card than IG.
Last edit: 19 Mar 2019 00:40 by jblacey.
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19 Mar 2019 00:49 - 19 Mar 2019 00:50 #94150 by Timo

They enable different kinds of combat, but if you use them in decks that use them best, effectively 'canceling' an enemy card is always better than not giving them option to play them.


This is a false statement. Preventing a player from cycling a card is one of the most brutal mechanics you can do to someone in V:tES. The only thing worse is removing a card from someone's deck. Incidentally, this is also part of the reason that Ashur Tablets are so absurd. You are putting a card in your hand and cycling.

Short Aside: I have killed political decks with a full hand of S:CE end that could never draw into their votes with IG and that does *not* happen with Pysche. They are fundamentally different cards. If anything, Pysche is a more "fair" combat card than IG.


You can have a different opinion than someone else without the other being wrong or saying "false statement".

For example, I have missed killing an opponent because I didn't draw a third IG and so the one Earth Meld being still in the hand of my opponent prevented me from killing his vampire.

Both psyche and IG are good ways to avoid S:CE but each one need a special deckbuilding. IG enables you to play your full combat package before range but can't do anything against 2 maneuvres while psyche combat forces you to play permanent combat like .44 or permanent strength in order to be efficient and need to have more psyche than the opponent have S:CE.
Last edit: 19 Mar 2019 00:50 by Timo.

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19 Mar 2019 01:06 - 19 Mar 2019 01:36 #94151 by jblacey

Yes, Earth meld is a defensive card unlike this proposal which makes all the difference.


The hell it is! The vast majority of the time I prefer to use Earth Meld over Form of Mist on my own actions just so my prey doesn't know what I am doing until it is too late. Ever played "Change of Target"?

Earth Meld is *not* just a defensive card... all it means that I don't worry about your strikes.
One of my favorite combos is Dawn Operation + Drawing out the Beast + Earth Meld and depending on my mood: Amaranth.
Last edit: 19 Mar 2019 01:36 by jblacey.

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