Compromise on Villein

Adonai wrote:

Asking anyone other than L. Scott Johnson what he had in mind when he created Villein is pointless speculation.

In my opinion, Villein was created to enable large vampire decks and to enable greater diversity in master cards. It enables large vampire decks by quickly recapturing invested pool. It provides greater diversity in master card play by being a trifle.

Any other value is superfluous.

Remember, if you want to know why LSJ did something, you can ask him.

Support 100%. The only thing bad on villein is that is not common.

Adonai wrote:

Remember, if you want to know why LSJ did something, you can ask him.

How? Disappointingly, he has no presence here, and asking him in email or chatting with him wouldn't serve this community at all.


Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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Would it be possible to ask him to make an account here instead of boardgamegeek? I haven't visited vtes bgg page for ages and I won't.

Adonai wrote:

No, and no.

Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

Tap&Cap does not need a solution.
Villein was not designed as a solution.

You have not demonstrated any need to change Villein.

The whole point of my post is that we have to split complex problem into smaller ones. By now the game is not broken, so any decitions conserning errata/bannings will have list of positive and list of negative consequences. We just have to make a list and compare to halves.

U r trying to say, that we got such positive aspects of villein:
1. Enabling of big vampires
2. Greater card (master) diversity

My conserns:
1. R u saying, that line "minion tap cards cost aditional pool" provides no positive benefit to the game?
2. Why more big caps is better 4 the game?
3. We got 5-6 extra master slots, but we lost 5-6 trifle slots and all other blood management options becomes unplayable. So have card diversity really increased?

elotar wrote:

The whole point of my post is that we have to split complex problem into smaller ones.

I have to admit that I find this whole discussion kind of boring. For nearly three months everybody repeats the same arguments over and over again. Some of us came to an agreement to calm down, wait for a year to see if the concerns of you and the others of your opinion prove to be true. Or if the game benefits of Villein. When I saw that you again relit the torch () I felt a bit frustrated.

This forceful complaining about one card gets a scent of hysterical behaviour. There are arguments in favour of Villein, there are some against. But this is true for all strong cards (e.g. Mirror Walk, Monastery of Shadows, Pentex Subversion, Direct Intervention, Parity Shift, Delaying Tactics, heck even Dreams of the Sphinx, I personally find Elder Impersonation too strong). As you see this discussion will never come to a satisfying end. Let us gather some information through this tournament season and meet again in late Fall (after the main tournaments are over).

At least I'm off until then.

elotar wrote:

The whole point of my post is that we have to split complex problem into smaller ones.

I agree with Joscha.
I don't believe that there is a complex problem here.

elotar wrote:

By now the game is not broken, so any decisions concerning errata/banning will have list of positive and list of negative consequences. We just have to make a list and compare to halves.

U r trying to say, that we got such positive aspects of villein:
1. Enabling of big vampires
2. Greater card (master) diversity

My concerns:
1. R u saying, that line "minion tap cards cost additional pool" provides no positive benefit to the game?

I'm saying that it doesn't matter to the game as a whole. There are swings and roundabouts, there are rock to your paper to other's scissors. All opponents are not playing Villein in every deck on every table.

elotar wrote:

2. Why more big caps is better 4 the game?

Being run over by 2-3-4 caps in 3-4 turns of play makes people leave the game. Improving large capacity vampires viability was one of the design prerequisites of the last 4-5 sets.

elotar wrote:

3. We got 5-6 extra master slots, but we lost 5-6 trifle slots and all other blood management options becomes unplayable. So have card diversity really increased?

Yes.
More non-pool gain cards are seeing play.
When your master selection is only pool gain, vast swathes of the game become lost. Villein + (other random permanent) is better than the game without the random permanent, which is what was observed when Minion Tap was the only option for quick pool recovery.