Compromise on Villein

Juggernaut said - "Again, it comes back to the fact that VC hinges off a commonly available OUSTING mechanism. Most of the non-VC ways to refill a vampire are not directly connected to ousting, but more Defensive. Most of the others do NOT provide pool, with the exception of Edge of the World which has the most restrictions of all of them. The only way to 'cancel' a VC is via DI, but there are other ways to deal with MT on its own."

(I apologize in advance for the weird way of publishing the qoute above)

I would argue that VC has similarities to taste of vitae. They both need two criteria. For VC you need a vote and means to pass that vote. Taste needs you to get into combat and to inflict damage to a vampire who has blood. Voting per definition is not ousting per definition but rather dependant on the vote in question exactly in the way that the importance of a combat is dependant on how important the combatants are to their respective controller. VC demands a common discipline taste doesnt have any such limitations. Both cards can fill you up depending on circumstances. VC can give you pool whereas taste can´t.

I´m not propagating that combat is more effective than voting as an ousting mechanism, but rather saying there are cards (notably taste of vitae) that can delivier similarly positive effects.

Ankha,
I argue that Villein was unnecessary. The problem with repeated Minion Taps lays with Voter Cap in particular, and potentially with the Minion Tap + Golconda + Anthelios combination. The claim about the need for Villein is that these combinations slow down games.

My argument is simple:
1. VC needed the change, because it is the only card with few requirements that is also connected to a major way of ousting your prey; Vote Decks. VC gives not just blood, but also pool (up to 2 pool).

2. There is one other card that gives a vampire significant amounts of blood AND pool; Edge of the World which is a Laibon Clan Card that can only be played on an ousting action.

3. Any other card that gives enough blood to fill a vampire has significant limitations. Renewed Vigor requires which is a Bloodline discipline. Dmitra's ability does not refill a vampire, at most it gives 4 blood. Concert Tour is a Clan Card for a Bloodline Clan that can at most give 8 blood.


Conclusion:
Golconda + MT wasn't restricted by Villein. It was enhanced because of the Trifle status of Villein. So now it is easier to gain up to 11 pool in a single master phase from Villein + Golconda.

The only mechanics that were affected were VC + Minion Tap and Renewed Vigor + MT. Renewed Vigor would, by its nature of being a bloodline discipline, be a comparatively rare card (in play). So that leaves the only tactic affected as VC + Minion Tap. So you can errata Minion Tap or VC. LSJ and the others chose Minion Tap, but I think that it should have been VC.

Most of the non-VC ways to refill a vampire are not directly connected to ousting, but more Defensive.

I'd argue that whacking vampires on the left is a pretty offensive action.

Also, not all votes are an ousting mechanism and your entire argument is built around the assumption that every vote card put on the table goes unblocked and passes by more than 6 votes.

The only way to 'cancel' a VC is via DI

Or Denial of Aphrodite's Favor or Iron Heart or Touch of Clarity. Or Delaying Tactics *after* the votepush has been played.

Also, Voter Cap provides 2 pool at best. By your own argument there are other ways to counter the Minion Tap that followed.

There's a bunch of other cards that give 2 pool directly (Art Scam, Haqim's Law) or indirectly (Enchant Kindred, Scouting Mission and lots of similar cards) that don't require a succesfull political action, a referendum to pass by at least 2 votes and then an additional card on top of it.

Does Art Scam need fixing?

Izaak wrote:

There's a bunch of other cards that give 2 pool directly (Art Scam, Haqim's Law) or indirectly (Enchant Kindred, Scouting Mission and lots of similar cards) that don't require a succesfull political action, a referendum to pass by at least 2 votes and then an additional card on top of it.

+1

Generally I think we are a little lost in debate and forget the point of all of it.

(1) Main reason to Villein was an idea to speed the game by penalizing cap&tap in the mid-end game. (was it really a problem at the time?)

It was failure:
(2) cap&tap becomes just better,
and
(3) generraly number of 0,5 VP games rose, cause of simplier pool gain. (is it really true?)

but

(4) Big cap vampires become more playable (is it really good 4 the game?)

(5) There are piles of arguments against villein in general

(6) There are piles of arguments against changing the game

I think we have to begin from the (1)

elotar wrote:

(1) Main reason to Villein was an idea to speed the game by penalizing cap&tap in the mid-end game.

Probably not. More likely, Villein was designed as an alternative to Minion Tap in exactly the same way that Vessel was designed as an alternative to Blood Doll, in order to provide players with actual choices during deckbuilding. Unfortunately, Villein failed (mostly) where Vessel succeeded (somewhat).