Compromise on Villein

BeAst wrote:

I agree its not an unreasonable solution to errata text, (insert usual caveats about perfect knowledge) where it's clearly necessary.

A quick search on the TWDA reveals the last use of Minion Tap was Mike Zajac's win at An Anarch Manifesto, San Jose, California on December 20, 2010. a tournament with 14 players. Prior to that Cameron Goudie's Gateway 2010 Event 4, Los Angeles, California, September 5, 2010 (13 players). More extreme - Michael Courtois' win at Gateway 2010 - Event 2, with a deck with 15 minion taps.
In fact, I count 100 odd TWDs featuring Villein since the start of 2009 (Villein first appearing at the end of 2008, IIRC) BUT 40 odd TWDs with minion taps over the same period. This suggests that not only is Minion Tap still playable in a tournament environment, but it's still in regular use.

Even though Villein is now 2.5 times as prevalent as Minion Tap, I cannot agree that it needs banning, errataing, proxying, or that it has crippled decks using Minion Tap.

Beast, sorry, if I was a little offending.

But it's your reasoning, which make me think so.

It may be 40 MT in decks since the begginning from 2009, but only 5 since the beginning of 2010. Which, I think, shows the way of MT when villein enters tournament scene.

MT is generraly unplayable exept in very special decks. I don't think, that it's a problem, but it's a fact.

Kushiel wrote:

The ability to put Villein in decks, and all the knock-on effects which that loss entails.

By now I see only one knock-on effect - Girls...

I think that Villein was actually meant to be analogous to Vessel - an alternative to a staple meant to shake up the prevalance of that staple, not a replacement for it - but it failed to get that fourth round of playtesting that would've landed it in the same sweet spot as Vessel.

I'm meaning it too. My english may be a little sucky thou.

Every time a new deck archetype appears on the tournament scene and does well, some folks will lament its brokenness. Until it's actually shown to be broken, which Girls hasn't been, that lamentation isn't reason enough to make changes to the game itself.

It's very hard to define "broken" in vtes, so I'm not saying smth about it. But it's degenerated, cause it's just gaining crasy amount of pool by trifle.

I was actually thinking of public events liks Weeks of Nightmares and Origins when I wrote that. It's quite common to see people lending each other cards during those events.

So you sugest official advice for new players "bag for villeins at tournaments".

But I'm a bit confused now - if there aren't many/any Villeins in your playgroup, how are you disadvantated by playing Minion Tap there?

Because evil Elotar got all villeins, so he is now effectivly choosing the tournament vinners To be honest, last one was won by guy with MT, but he really suffered all day.

elotar wrote:

That's not what I was referring to. It's been possible to play Minion Tap and Giant's Blood in the same master phase since the beginning of the game. Villein makes that easier to pull off, but it's certainly not a new effect by any measure.

Just a little easier.

elotar wrote:

By now I see only one knock-on effect - Girls...

Then look more closely. Not all of those Villein-using decks that are in the TWDA, which are the cause of the complaint that Tap is wallpapered in the first place, are Girls variants.

elotar wrote:

I'm meaning it too. My english may be a little sucky thou.

Not a problem. Your English is infinitely better than my Russian.

elotar wrote:

It's very hard to define "broken" in vtes, so I'm not saying smth about it. But it's degenerated, cause it's just gaining crasy amount of pool by trifle.

I've only ever seen the word "degenerate" used as a synonym for broken, so I'm not sure what you mean here.

elotar wrote:

So you sugest official advice for new players "bag for villeins at tournaments".

My advice for new players is to stick to small- and midcap decks until they get the fundamentals of the game down, actually. But if a new player insisted on wanting to play a large-cap deck but didn't have the Villeins to do so, I'd absolutely advise him to ask around for loaner copies, and do the same for him myself if I didn't have any spare to give him, yes.

elotar wrote:

Because evil Elotar got all villeins, so he is now effectivly choosing the tournament vinners To be honest, last one was won by guy with MT, but he really suffered all day.

If the members of your playgroup are winning tournaments with Minion Tap, I have a really hard time seeing how the lack of Villeins is a problem.

elotar wrote:

Just a little easier.

It's not that much easier - I can think of exactly one instance of a Villain/Giant's Blood combo happening when it wasn't being played by a deck that was planning on generating multiple MPAs anyway (and therefore could've done the trick just as easily with Tap as with Villein, since most decks don't run more Villeins than they used to run Taps). YMMV, of course.

BeAst wrote:

I agree its not an unreasonable solution to errata text, (insert usual caveats about perfect knowledge) where it's clearly necessary.

A quick search on the TWDA reveals the last use of Minion Tap was Mike Zajac's win at An Anarch Manifesto, San Jose, California on December 20, 2010. a tournament with 14 players. Prior to that Cameron Goudie's Gateway 2010 Event 4, Los Angeles, California, September 5, 2010 (13 players). More extreme - Michael Courtois' win at Gateway 2010 - Event 2, with a deck with 15 minion taps.

Even though Villein is now 2.5 times as prevalent as Minion Tap, I cannot agree that it needs banning, errataing, proxying, or that it has crippled decks using Minion Tap.

Being from Southern California, I have to say that you should be careful to use these TWDs as examples that Minion Tap is still viable in competitive decks. Compared with other parts of the world, Villein is not commonly played here. At the final that Cameron Goudie won, there was only one player at the table who had ever made it to a final before, Matt Wedge. The other three players were what I would consider to be "newbies", with no offense intended. I saw two of those decks, and they were not using cards from the latest sets. My impression is that there were no Villeins present in any deck at that table. That seems unheard for European finals.

At the FCQ at the EC 2010, I would probably have qualified if I had been playing with Villeins instead of Minion Taps. In my first game, I had to pay two pool to Minion Tap Arika, and I was ousted with less than twenty seconds left with a bleed for exactly enough to kill me. If I had not been ousted from my first game, I would have made the cut-off to qualify. It's hard for me to agree with people who say that Minion Taps can still be played in competitive decks. Perhaps they can be played in a few selected deck types, but they have been completely supplanted for general use by Villein - at least, outside of Southern California .

I was just thinking (hoping that this hasn't already being said): what if minion tap becomes trifle?
IMHO villein will be better in any case, but at least with the "trifleness" MT has again a little sense.

At that final in San Jose, I don't think that any of the decks ran Villein, or at least not very many. I didn't, Ira didn't, Robert Scythe didn't(at least I'm pretty sure), and I don't think that A.J. did(he was playing old school Tzim). That is the right environment for minion tap. In a game with two+ players playing Villein, forget it. I give up on arguing any further on the internets on this point.