file Number of VtES players

05 Sep 2019 10:54 #96827 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Number of VtES players

TwoRazorReign wrote: This last part is the only thing I disagree with (the first part about not being like M:tG is right on). VTES is very much a card game. I think a lot of people have issues with the game because they put too much emphasis on perceiving the game functioning like a board game, when it really does not. Cards get shuffled and there's a fuck ton of randomness afterword. Many times I have heard people complaining on here about how random VTES is and it being a flaw. Nope. Those people seem to have forgotten that it's a card game, not a board game.

Well, I must add that I´ve played many (successful, good) boardgames with at least as much randomness as VTES (dice!!). But sure, I understand that people don´t like that, and sure, this game might not be for them. Fine.

"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

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05 Sep 2019 13:37 #96828 by TwoRazorReign

Ashur wrote: Well, I must add that I´ve played many (successful, good) boardgames with at least as much randomness as VTES (dice!!). But sure, I understand that people don´t like that, and sure, this game might not be for them. Fine.


I got you. I'm referring specifically to the idea that card games, unlike board games with dice, afford less skilled (ie, new) players more opportunity to get lucky and more skilled (ie, old) players more opportunity to lose due to the combination of randomness and hidden information. I've run into frustration among some obviously skilled players on these forums when their "strong" deck randomly fails, and they site design flaws (usually that the other tier 1 archetype they lost to is too strong). The failure is almost always not attributable to a design flaw, rather it's just how card games work sometimes.

Anyway, back to the point: VTES is not a hybrid card game/board game, so I'd be reticent to describe VTES as having any elements resembling board games. VTES is a card game complete with the pros and cons card games entail.

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05 Sep 2019 15:53 #96829 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Number of VtES players

Ashur wrote:

Kraus wrote:

And thats the problem. You will not sell new thnig if old ones have to high power level.

Eventually, yes. Ashur, is this being addressed, has it been discussed in BCP meetings, and is BCP facing many problems with selling their products and designing new cards?

Lots of things are discussed, but the core of what we have agreed on is rather well summarized in "Our vision" at the site. BCP are currently producing VTES, not rebuilding it. Making new crypt cards, new precons, reprinting what old cards that are worth reprinting, filling some "blank spots" in the design space and doing some new stuff thats in line with current metaplot (Hecata, Banu Haqim, etc) will keep us very busy for the forseeable future - producing cards that are more powerful than Govern the Unaligned just to satisfy people that want more powerful cards is not very interesting.


A more powerful govern? Do we even have the technology?

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05 Sep 2019 17:40 #96830 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Number of VtES players

Mewcat wrote: A more powerful govern? Do we even have the technology?


Yeah, it came out in Ancient Hearts back in 1996 and lived for couple years before being banned. It was Return to Innocence that worked wonders with first Nosferatu bleed boost due to their natural access to stealth and then months later Sabbat's Mind Rape. That deck used large caps of pre dementation malks and other g1-2 to obf-dom smaller caps and unless they are Minion Tapped to below 4 before they make temporary control change, they play forward with Return to Innocence for +5-8 action bleed. Massive bleed and burn a prey/predator vampire reducing the possibility of pounce in two (plus stealth delivery) card combo.

Then powers that be figured rewording the card text completely would solve it but access to other Jyhad era shenigans meant people risked losing massive pool amounts without answers like Archon Investigation it still worked with support from spying missions with the prey without time to react as actions were performed at the end of predator's minion phase (that's why the text in say Secret Library differs from printed cards in more then "small" detail). So it was buried away to the ban list and people vowed never again go past +3 bleed on a single card or well some did, others declared stealth bleed would be dead as valid deck. Those debates also helped to set Govern as the "Gold standard" as powerful action card.

More powerful bloat then Govern was Tomb of Ramses III in it's Ancient Hearts text form, comparing it to the later prints displays the... power... of the original effect. It was also changed by the time it was next printed but since Final Nights despite multitude of sets it still has not seen reprint even in it's current form. It works quite well to accelerate Tariq out on late table seating position but for other vampires arriving at half blood (or less if there's been time to pull back and forth shenigans).

I carry Return to Innocence around in my powerbleed deck as single meme card of times past either used in otherwise confirmed oust move, discarded to ash heap or just topic of casual discussion to give deeper insight on how the game once was designed and how things were changed. Thus far new players have always enjoyed when it's made it's appearance and the insight it has given for them on the history of the game. I shoot my decks in the foot for including these 5-10 cards of "interesting relics of the bygone era" but I feel it's worth it. How else will the new players ever see those cards outside the checklists or auctions that might even "scam" them as they're not without proper knowledge on how the card has changed since print. Their opinion might be different if there were fifteen copies of Return to Innocence and enough Mind Rape for three methuselah's and I ran the full "abuse" package that was feared back then. Responsibility, social contract and all that jazz. There were some hilarious and interesting texts printed way back and it's history I feel deserves little sacrifice in deck strength to be passed to new generations.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
The following user(s) said Thank You: self biased, Pyrocuror

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06 Sep 2019 12:18 #96837 by Mewcat
Replied by Mewcat on topic Number of VtES players
That's not a better govern. Maybe a better conditioning. I was looking for

Scouting the enchanted unaligned
Cost 2 blood
Bleed at + 4
Put 4 beads on younger vamp
Dance!

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09 Sep 2019 13:29 #96884 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Number of VtES players
I agree with Ashur, it would be too easy AND boring to simply print the same cards with bigger numbers (see Mewcat's Scouting The Enchanted Unaligned example above.)

I much prefer cards with neat restrictions, conditionals, or some kind of in-built counterplay (ex. for the latter: True Loves Face let's your opponent burn 1 pool to cancel the card. Another example would be a card that has a nice effect, but if the opposing vamp has :ani:, the effect is lessened or something.)

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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