file Contents and card changes in 25th Anniversary revealed

07 Jun 2019 12:25 - 07 Jun 2019 12:25 #95302 by Mewcat
I played a game last week where one poor dude was prey to a weenie dementation deck. It took cross-table Pentex and parity to give him a chance to play.
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Why not fix the oppressive deck directly? half measures avail us nothing
Last edit: 07 Jun 2019 12:25 by Mewcat.

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07 Jun 2019 13:25 #95306 by jonathan

Mewcat wrote: I played a game last week where one poor dude was prey to a weenie dementation deck. It took cross-table Pentex and parity to give him a chance to play.
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Why not fix the oppressive deck directly? half measures avail us nothing


It's a very good question that I can only answer on a very personal level.

So I will only talk about my own view on the game.

I really enjoy the interactions and intellectual effort it takes to find solutions with the different resources available at the table.

I don't think that there were anything that were not manageable pre-errata.

I am also convinced that a good deck will necessarily be unfair in some situation, wether it is very fast and aimed forward only, or some slow build-up deck, or wall deck... My slow big cap inner circle deck will be very vulnerable at the start of the game, but if it gets rolling, it's completely degenerate. So it's fair that people will try to prevent me from reaching critical mass. And it's fair that LoP tries to oust me before I completely shut him down.

If my deck can't handle weenie Dementation, or the Unmasking, or rush combat, or whatever... I'm ok with not being able to play the game, being ousted or losing my board quickly because of the seating. I could have choosen a different deck, that could handle better what the random seating put me next to. But I did not. I made a choice that led me to suffering. It's not the game's fault, it's not the card's fault. It's my own fault (and I must add that I really enjoy trying to find means to get out of bad situations).

Actually, after frustrating games, I try to debrief with friends. There is almost always things I could have done better. And if I can't see any, so be it.

I also am not bothered by Una. When you look at the big picture, it does not win that much tournaments. When it does, it is played by awesome players, that would make finals anyway. But for that specific day, they chose Una because they thought it was their best shot at final victory. They read the meta well, and played well.

The best deck, played by the best player, does not win every game. Table sweeps are more the exception than the rule.

Also, decks like weenie Dementation are a gold mine for new players: they are really easy to understand, they tend to make 1VP quite easily. But it's really hard to make GWs with them on a table with competent players. So the weenie Dementation will learn many things: going all out on your prey may be detrimental if you want to score more than 1VP, Kindred spirits gives you a way to deal with bad matchups, too much stealth in hand will choke the deck. Also, it teaches that being the big threat on the table from the get go generally hinders you.

In my mind, oppressive is very different from overpowered. Early pressure is just one of many general strategies. It's strong, it can be frustrating for people being preyed on, but it is far from giving easy GWs all the time. Every deck in the bloody game is far from giving easy GWs all the time.

Final reminder: everything I write above is just my personal opinion. It's what I think and how I feel.
It is nowhere close to any absolute truth.
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07 Jun 2019 13:28 - 07 Jun 2019 13:28 #95307 by Sambomb

Mewcat wrote: Why not fix the oppressive deck directly? half measures avail us nothing

Tell this to BCP and the Ankara / Una nerf

Archbishop of Itaocara
Prince ID #510
Last edit: 07 Jun 2019 13:28 by Sambomb.

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07 Jun 2019 14:55 #95309 by DJHedgehog

Luriel wrote: I won't say my "2 cents" because it feels more like 2 "handfuls of cents" in this case. I hope I don't bore anyone.

On a general basis. If you asked me about changing what some cards that have been in the game since almost the vey beginning do, I would say no. If nothing else just for keeping the spirit of those cards. That said all the latest changes seem to be the result of a thoughtful work, definitively not the first answer to a problem.

Something I would have been grateful for would have been a bit of open development in this matter. While Paradox needs the existance of a company such as Black Chantry Productions to be able to talk about VtES, I want to think BCP is still related to (if not part of) the VEKN which is a player organization since its birth. So, it should involve the player base as much as possible. I have personally met some of you and think of you more as players stepping up for the game's sake than as businessman in a company.

I don't know how long has this process taken. But writing some posts in this very forum during its different steps open to player feedback would have been great. Things in the line of "After discussing internally the situation of these cards, we've reached the conclussion that something must be done. Any feedback would be appreciated but keep in mind that while we will listen to your opinion, we won't necessarily follow what you propose." or "We plan on playtesting these changes. If you feel you can offer a better solution, feel free to contribute knowing your idea has probably already been taken into account and discarded.".

I want to think that the whole VtES community is able to reach better solutions to matters regarding the game than just a part of it. No matter how experienced and knowable of the game that part is.

Let's focus on every single card now.


I don't think the current design teams owe it to us to include everyone on the decision. I don't think making a decision by committee is the best way to make card changes. I don't think it's the designer's job to communicate their every thought and let the community weigh in.

There is something about VTES that I don't see in every game, and it's this sense that the players "own" the game. The truth is that they never have. Players support the game by playing, but design choices require a designated team who can steer the game on a macro level. Everyone might not agree with the changes but ultimately not everyone is going to agree with them no matter what.

People called out for change, people called out to maintain the status quo. One of those groups is going to be disappointed.
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08 Jun 2019 16:23 #95324 by Mewcat
@Jonathan

You are kind of all over the place. First u say that weenie dem requires outside intervention so someone can play the game, then say no deck is problematic. I'm not sure what the point is. Just dont change anything, prrhaps?

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08 Jun 2019 18:14 #95329 by jonathan
My point is : it's a multiplayer game with many possibilities for interacting outside of the predator/prey relationship.

So yes, weenie Dementation is very powerful and can oust you very fast. But I also do not think it is a problem. It loses hard to bounce and weenie combat, it can suffer from massive hand jamming and table hate. It also burns through its resources very fast, which makes GWs quite difficult to earn.

I see no paradox here.

I apologize if my poor command of the English language prevents me from stating my opinion clearly.

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