Guide and Mentor - Perfectionist

tigernat wrote:

Doesn't it seem like you are going back in time to benefit from the perfectionist? It does to me. It was not in play for the action.

If I equip an Ankara Citadel, Turkey...I only have to pay 1 blood because I can use the text on the Citadel, right? Paying for actions and resolving the action happen in the same step according to the rules.

Some cards have been ruled to be able to "see back in time"... Carlton being the obvious example.

Other times rulings have forced cost and resolution to be simultaneous, and other times not so. Hence Ankara Citadel doesn't get a discount when you equip it, but playing Villein on a minion where the 'cost' of playing the Villein would oust you is resolved simultaneously with the effect of the card.

I still strongly advocate that we should have read the "pay cost" part of the rule to mean 'un-interruptably' and not 'concurrently'

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Some cards have been ruled to be able to "see back in time"... Carlton being the obvious example.

That's just what the card text says. Has vampire X committed diablerie in the given time frame? Yes, then you can burn Carlton. Nothing on the card indicates that Carlton had to be in play when the diablerie happened, any more than you had to control a vampire at the point a diablerie occurred to play Sixth Tradition with that vampire. (Which, while unusual, is perfectly doable.)

tigernat wrote:

Doesn't it seem like you are going back in time to benefit from the perfectionist? It does to me. It was not in play for the action.

It's arguable.

The obvious precedent is Sniper Rifle.
If you block without Sniper Rifle, equip it before range with Disguised Weapon, and then try to set range with it, you can't. "If the bearer blocks" means that you must be the bearer when you block. [LSJ 20010922]


Compare Perfectionist:
Since this is also in the present tense, it would be necessary to know when a vampire "performs" the action.

I would tentatively suggest that happens at the moment of successfully determining resolution, but I'm not 100% certain on that.

An interesting setup might be what happens if I control a vampire, but you control the Perfectionist master card on that vampire. If I oust you during a bleed, the master card goes away during resolution. Has the "If this vampire successfully performs..." effect already been triggered, ready to give me a blood at the delayed moment? (Like Lutz disappearing during a referendum.) Or does it only trigger later meaning that - because you took the card with you when you were ousted - it's not there?

Here are the cards that would raise the same doubt (cardtext using "successfully performs"):
- Edge Explosion (to get a conviction before paying)
- Herbert Westlin (Anonymous Freight)
- Merged Lambach (though I can't find an example right now)
- Maureen (playing UHF)
- Orun (Exile)
- Saqqaf (serpentis actions that cost 1 pool)
- Sargon (Enticement)

- Danse Macabre (for those who'd want to have an empty untapped vampire and a fizzled action more than an empty tapped vampire and a non-fizzled action)

In all these cases, it looks like "successfully performs" is a check that is applied *after paying*, and *after resolving* (Herbert is probably the best argument here - but I can't find a reference).

So I'll say if you fetch a Perfectionist via Guide and Mentor's action, and noone played a reaction card, you'll get the Perfectionist blood.

Nota: Perfectionist should probably read "and no reaction cards were played" ...

"After further review, the call on the field stands."

Pascal wrote:

In all these cases, it looks like "successfully performs" is a check that is applied *after paying*, and *after resolving* (Herbert is probably the best argument here - but I can't find a reference).

Michael diCarlo clearly gets his "successfully performs" benefit earlier than "after resolution" (since the combat is part of resolution). Card text: "If Michael successfully performs an action to enter combat with another minion, he may set the range in the first round of the resulting combat to long". Similarly, Bravo still seems to be just inside resolution (i.e. pre-'after resolving the action' effects): " Once per turn, when this vampire successfully performs an action to enter combat with another, he or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank when the combat ends, if he or she is still ready." Both of these, you could argue deviate from any standard timing based on the Golden Rule of Cards. (Or you could determine a standard timing and let them deviate from it based on...)

In the case of Sargon, "Whenever Sargon successfully performs an action, you get the Edge." That happens after resolution, such that during an action where you get the Edge anyway, you can get the Edge twice. (And burn it for something like Sabbat Threat in between.) [LSJ 20090624]

Reg Driscoll might care: "If Reg performs a successful equip action, you may move the equipment to any ready minion you control." (Unless performs a successful is different from successfully performs.) If the effect kicks in after resolution, maybe I've been able to use an effect/play a card that changes my mind. Forced March is "after resolving the action" - maybe the replacement card I draw means I decide to move the equipment instead of keeping it, or the other way round.

All of the "gain a pool" vampires - Maureen, Saqqaf etc. - would care if The Rising is in play and control of the Edge was involved in the action. (Bleeds, Regaining the Upper Hand.)

Cavalier says: "Once per turn, when this vampire successfully performs an action that costs 1 or more blood, he or she may burn an additional blood to untap."In [LSJ 20100420] , it's implicitly asserted that this means "end of the action". But my question would be: additional to what? The cost? Seems that way from the wording. But then compare The Damned: "The vampire with this card burns 1 additional blood for each bleeding action he or she successfully performs (after resolving the action)." What's that additional to?