file Re: Blood to Water clarification

03 Jul 2020 06:39 #100238 by Ankha

Azog wrote: When can Blood to Water be played and when does the oposite minion burns the blood?

LSJ: "It can be played any time after range is determined and before
strikes resolve, and only if the range is close."
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JUnIGIrb3pw/EOo-cGykdmYJ

The effect is immediate (either burning blood or burning the ally).

Azog wrote: 1st - Blood to Water states that it can only be used at close range and must be used before strike resolution so, it must be played during the strike selection step.

No, it can be played at other moments:

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78713-blood-of-water-timing-before-strike-resolution#100237

Azog wrote: - If the ative minion plays BtW before he chooses his strike the oposing minion will have to burn his blood before he can choose he's strike?

It is possible.

Azog wrote: - Can the oposing minion play BtW before the ative minion selects his strike forcing the ative minion to burn blood before he is able to choose his strike?

It is possible.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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03 Jul 2020 08:09 - 03 Jul 2020 08:13 #100239 by Bloodartist

ReverendRevolver wrote: After range is established, the impulse passes from acting to non acting methuselah, juat as in any instance of cards and sequences. Same window as grapple is played, Btw is.


The problem with this line of thought is that combat defaults to close. So you are at close range when combat starts, during pre-range step even. (This is important in some outside the hourglass shenanigans)

Since blood to water doesn't specify the step its played at, I assume it can be played in prerange.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 03 Jul 2020 08:13 by Bloodartist.

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03 Jul 2020 15:25 #100244 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote: Since blood to water doesn't specify the step its played at, I assume it can be played in prerange.

It must be played after the "determine range" step.

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03 Jul 2020 15:33 #100245 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote: The problem with this line of thought is that combat defaults to close. So you are at close range when combat starts, during pre-range step even. (This is important in some outside the hourglass shenanigans)

Not quite. You can't play cards that require a specific range to be played until you have moved after the "determine range" step.

The reason why you can play a Pulled Fangs if the opposing vampire goes to torpor is that you move to the end of round step when the opposing vampire goes to torpor which is after the determine range step, and default range is close range so you fulfill the Pulled Fangs condition.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/j98aqFIFjnE/LA3AWx8b31cJ

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rémi

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21 Aug 2020 15:37 - 21 Aug 2020 15:42 #100570 by Rémi
Dear all,

Ankha wrote:

Bloodartist wrote: The problem with this line of thought is that combat defaults to close. So you are at close range when combat starts, during pre-range step even. (This is important in some outside the hourglass shenanigans)

Not quite. You can't play cards that require a specific range to be played until you have moved after the "determine range" step.


May I add a question on that specific part please?

I would be interested in the use of an effect like Cailean before "range is determined".

Part A
Would it allow a vampire to play Blood to Water and later in the same step Torn Signpost? (I hope not)
Would it close the window to play Torn Sign Post? (I hope not)

Part B
Would it allow the next sequence?
1- Outside the Hourglass (superior temporis with no damage prevention)
2- Any kind of effect that can set the range to close.
3- Any kind of effect that end combat before range is chosen
4- Disarm

Card Text
Name: Cailean (Setting the range to close)
Cardtype: Vampire
Sabbat Archbishop of Detroit: Each round of combat, before range is determined, Cailean can set the range for that round. If he does so, skip the Determine Range step for that round.

Name: Charge of the Buffalo (Setting the range to close)
Cardtype: Action
[spi] (D) Enter combat with a minion. Set the range for the first round of that combat to close, and this acting vampire's initial strike during that round is strike: hand strike at +1 damage.

Name: Omael Kuman (Setting the range to close)
Cardtype: Retainer
The employer can burn 1 blood to set the range for the round before range is determined during the first round of combat.

Torn Signpost or any card that should be played in the same window
Name: Torn Signpost
Only usable before range is determined.

Name: Alpha Glint (Ending the combat)
Cardtype: Combat
Not usable in combat with an ally or an older vampire.
[ANI][FOR] Only usable before range is determined. Combat ends.

Name: Illusions of the Kindred (Ending the combat)
Cardtype: Combat
Only usable before range is determined.
[chi] Combat ends. (...)

Name: Disarm (At end of combat + close range required)
Cardtype: Combat
[pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.

Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Rémi.

I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (SPAIN). I was the Prince of Lyon (FRANCE) in 2003 :)
Last edit: 21 Aug 2020 15:42 by Rémi.

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21 Aug 2020 23:04 #100573 by Snodig
Even though range is set (and cannot be set again, and no maneuvers are allowed) you can still play pre-maneuvers like Torn Signpost.

Pretty sure you could play OTH and Disarm in your scenario too.

You would have to play Torn Signpost before range is set, then wait to play Blood to Water until all pre-maneuvers are played.

Realizing the pre-maneuver window is still there (even though you cannot use maneuvers after it) helps to understand all of these I think.

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