file Problems with the judge system

12 Aug 2018 20:33 #89926 by Khalid1988
With VTES being back in print, the Judge system and Judge's Guide should be put under revision. In smaller and larger VTES events, there are a variety of situations which would have been clearer to solve if the Judge's Guide was more thorough. I think with EC just around the corner it is important that judge systems would be clarified so they could be applied more efficiently. These are the points I would want to address:

1. Not following Play To Win rule is not being penalized enough

Recently in some games and even some tournaments I've observed behavior that people have bluntly stated that they refuse to Play To Win only because another player in the table is playing a deck they don't like even if that player wouldn't be their prey. Or that they would threaten to self-oust themselves when no one hasn't been yet ousted from the game just because another player is playing a deck they don't like.

2. Unsportsmanlike conduct is mixed as table talk

People applying ad hominem arguments as table talk often easily escape with that behavior without it being called out as unsportsmanlike conduct. In general unsportsmanlike behavior is very often swept aside as jokes and not taken seriously because people never get issued cautions or warnings for their acts, no matter how obnoxious they might be.

VTES is a hobby and people need to be able to enjoy their hobby without bullying or being treated in an unsportsmanlike manner. Any such behavior should be discouraged and not be swept aside with a laugh as a "joke". And these kinds of situations are where the Judge's Guide and Judges should take a firmer stance in opposing this kind of behavior, so people would learn that they can't act like that without consequences as is often the case currently.

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12 Aug 2018 21:48 #89931 by KzArashi

Khalid1988 wrote: 1. Not following Play To Win rule is not being penalized enough

Recently in some games and even some tournaments I've observed behavior that people have bluntly stated that they refuse to Play To Win only because another player in the table is playing a deck they don't like even if that player wouldn't be their prey. Or that they would threaten to self-oust themselves when no one hasn't been yet ousted from the game just because another player is playing a deck they don't like.



--About this I can say that I that through the years I have seen a number of people simply forbidden other players of playing decks that they Judge as being "heretic" in some sort.
Imbued decks for example. I saw a number of times were a player was systematically hunted down from the table. And a ever great number of time were even before a tournament a Player was threatened to not bring a Imbued deck. Some act as if that were a joke. But I dont see in that way.

Khalid1988 wrote: 2. Unsportsmanlike conduct is mixed as table talk

People applying ad hominem arguments as table talk often easily escape with that behavior without it being called out as unsportsmanlike conduct. In general unsportsmanlike behavior is very often swept aside as jokes and not taken seriously because people never get issued cautions or warnings for their acts, no matter how obnoxious they might be.


--Yes. Still waiting the VTES' Code of Conduct and a moore detailed Prince's and Volunteers Guidelines, demanding a moore active position from the tournament organizers against bad behaviors.

Khalid1988 wrote: VTES is a hobby and people need to be able to enjoy their hobby without bullying or being treated in an unsportsmanlike manner. Any such behavior should be discouraged and not be swept aside with a laugh as a "joke". And these kinds of situations are where the Judge's Guide and Judges should take a firmer stance in opposing this kind of behavior, so people would learn that they can't act like that without consequences as is often the case currently.



--Yes, I do agree totally with that too. Unsportsmanlike manner and bad behaviors are things that are a poison to the VTES community in general. But sadly a great number o player leave the hobby because his funn is constantly treated by the lack of punishment or action to refrain the wrongdoers. We know well the situation here in Brazil .

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13 Aug 2018 04:08 #89938 by Khalid1988
Also, the latest revision of the Judge's Guide based on the time stamp on the Judge's Guide section of VEKN website points out to January 1st 2004. That is 14,5 years old. Maybe it is time to have an updated look on the systems?

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13 Aug 2018 06:48 - 13 Aug 2018 07:17 #89941 by Bloodartist
Somewhat relevant

Especially regarding self-ousting. The consensus in above thread is: you can self-oust. If you do it in a tournament, you are disqualified, just like breaking any other rule.

Regarding unsportsmanlike conduct: The only way it can be fought against in a tournament is with judge stepping in. It is good if judge's guide or similar document is clear on the matter (such as punishments etc) but ultimately this is on judge's responsibility. I mean sure, other players should voice out but only the judge is able (or should be able to) to remove a player from a tournament if necessary. Its good if the judge's guide is clear on matters, but no amount of changes is going to protect players from unsportsmanlike conduct unless the judge is there to apply it.

What I see as a future problem is that there are no qualifications to being a VTES judge right now it seems. Therefore the person acting as a judge may not be sufficiently prepared to everything that is needed, such as rules questions. Right now one can raise his hand and be a judge when the call goes out. This leads to situations such as the Tragic love affair tournament earlier this summer, which turned out being made nonsanctioned because too many mistakes were being made with card legality. On the other hand, if we make it too difficult to be a judge, there would be much less sanctioned tournaments since they would be held according to available judge's timetables. Right now our player numbers are so low that we shouldn't stir the pot any further, but in the future perhaps, some kind of rules test? Worth discussing, possibly elsewhere in my opinion.

ps. I wholly support updating the judge's guide. I suspect the reason it hasn't changed is that there are not enough people for the job.

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Last edit: 13 Aug 2018 07:17 by Bloodartist.
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13 Aug 2018 07:33 - 13 Aug 2018 07:34 #89944 by jamesatzephyr

Khalid1988 wrote: 1. Not following Play To Win rule is not being penalized enough

Recently in some games and even some tournaments I've observed behavior that people have bluntly stated that they refuse to Play To Win only because another player in the table is playing a deck they don't like even if that player wouldn't be their prey. Or that they would threaten to self-oust themselves when no one hasn't been yet ousted from the game just because another player is playing a deck they don't like.


This is already in the tournament rules (4.8 ) - players have to play to win, and can't play based on goals that conflict with the rules of the game, and playing in a certain way because you don't like their deck or don't like that person or don't like people wearing yellow shirts is a violation of that.

If your judges won't enforce the existing rules that are already written down, no amount of re-writing the rules will help - your judge isn't following the rules. You need to get a better judge.

This isn't "The tournament rules and judges guide are perfect" - of course they can be improved, and I don't oppose that. But improving the rules won't fix a situation where your judge has decided that they don't need to enforce them and can do what they like, because your judge has decided that they know better than the rules. No amount of clarifying the rules can fix that.
Last edit: 13 Aug 2018 07:34 by jamesatzephyr.
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13 Aug 2018 07:47 - 13 Aug 2018 07:50 #89945 by Bloodartist

jamesatzephyr wrote: If your judges won't enforce the existing rules that are already written down, no amount of re-writing the rules will help - your judge isn't following the rules. You need to get a better judge.


This is my opinion as well, and leads to my point earlier. We need to start making moves to ensure that our VTES judges are sufficiently qualified for the job.

ps. However, outside tournaments, I think that if players feel compelled to break the rules regularly in casual games (such as the play to win rule by self-ousting) then it is a game design problem.

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- Blutengel, Soultaker
Last edit: 13 Aug 2018 07:50 by Bloodartist.
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