file Progeny sect change

12 Nov 2018 17:14 #91811 by 1uck
Replied by 1uck on topic Progeny sect change
This seems like it would be a strict improvement for anarchs; bestowing sect automatically instead of having to take an action or using another card to change to anarch after the fact.

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12 Nov 2018 22:10 - 12 Nov 2018 22:11 #91820 by ulph
Replied by ulph on topic Progeny sect change

1uck wrote: This seems like it would be a strict improvement for anarchs; bestowing sect automatically instead of having to take an action or using another card to change to anarch after the fact.


This is the reason I got into researching this actually!

Aisha az-Zahra: "Independent anarch: During a referendum, Aisha can burn 1 blood to get +1 vote for each ready anarch you control. +1 bleed."

Salvador Garcia: "Independent anarch: While Salvador is ready, cards requiring an anarch cost you and anarchs you control 1 less blood or pool."

Toby: "Camarilla: Once each action, Toby can burn a blood to give an acting anarch +1 bleed." (needs support though, since he is Camarilla)

Inheriting sect in The Embrace or The Becoming would open more options for deck building.
Last edit: 12 Nov 2018 22:11 by ulph.
The following user(s) said Thank You: BenPeal, lionel

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13 Nov 2018 03:35 #91822 by BenPeal
Replied by BenPeal on topic Progeny sect change
Many thanks for the feedback and input, everyone!

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03 Mar 2019 02:43 #93813 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Progeny sect change

BenPeal wrote: Open question for you all: what potential issues do you see with eliminating default sect?


A discussion elsewhere reminded that Derange could also be hit by the change, similar to Clan Impersonation.

This may or may not be considered a problem overall, but it does change things. For example a !Malk deck can use Derange to destabilize a Parity Shift deck because - under the current rules - becoming !Malk makes you Sabbat, and therefore makes the title inert until you resume being Camarilla. In a world where you could Derange Queen Anne, she becomes !Malk, but stays Camarilla, that can't happen.

The same is true of !Malks affecting any non-Sabbat title, and Malks affecting any non-Camarilla title. Justicar titles, being clan based as well as sect based, are still inert while you're the wrong clan, though.

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13 Sep 2019 20:01 #96974 by beslin igor
Replied by beslin igor on topic Progeny sect change

jamesatzephyr wrote:

BenPeal wrote: Open question for you all: what potential issues do you see with eliminating default sect?


A discussion elsewhere reminded that Derange could also be hit by the change, similar to Clan Impersonation.

This may or may not be considered a problem overall, but it does change things. For example a !Malk deck can use Derange to destabilize a Parity Shift deck because - under the current rules - becoming !Malk makes you Sabbat, and therefore makes the title inert until you resume being Camarilla. In a world where you could Derange Queen Anne, she becomes !Malk, but stays Camarilla, that can't happen.

The same is true of !Malks affecting any non-Sabbat title, and Malks affecting any non-Camarilla title. Justicar titles, being clan based as well as sect based, are still inert while you're the wrong clan, though.


So if you change clan example Ventrue with Derange to !Malk, Ventru titles dont work because him become sabbat,But what if you example change Ventrue clan with derange with title Ventru Justicar or Inner Circle,does these titles work as Malk titles and can contest titles with Malk,example if Lutz play Derange on Arika,does they contest titles,same for Justicar?
If they contest titles,and Arika yield,if she move Derange on someone,does she get back his title?
If Assamite have contract in play,and him become Malk with Derange,contract probably dont work until him become Assamite again,right?

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13 Sep 2019 23:40 #96976 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Progeny sect change

beslin igor wrote: So if you change clan example Ventrue with Derange to !Malk, Ventru titles dont work because him become sabbat,


Yes, but also because you're not Ventrue. Having a "live" (not inert) Ventrue Justicar title requires you to be Camarilla and Ventrue.

beslin igor wrote: But what if you example change Ventrue clan with derange with title Ventru Justicar or Inner Circle,does these titles work as Malk titles and can contest titles with Malk,example if Lutz play Derange on Arika,does they contest titles,same for Justicar?


When you're Ventrue Justicar, you're Ventrue-Justicar-that's-the-title, not merely a Justicar who is Ventrue. Same for Inner Circle. If you change Democritus from being Camarilla and Ventrue, with his Ventrue-Justicar title, to being Camarilla and Malkavian, his Justicar title goes inert for as long as he's Malkavian. Similarly, Arika's IC title goes inert while she's Camarilla and Malkavian.

From 10.1 of the Rulebook:
Additionally, each clan's justicar and Inner Circle titles are unique (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2) and can only be held by vampires of that clan.

If you look at the official card text of, say, Arika at www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt , she says:
Camarilla Ventrue Inner Circle: If Arika is ready...

The "Ventrue" is there because she's the Ventrue-Inner-Circle. Vampires don't normally have their clan in their card text, just their sect.


beslin igor wrote: If they contest titles,and Arika yield,if she move Derange on someone,does she get back his title?


They don't contest titles in the situation you describe. But if a vampire ever does yield a title, it's gone forever. It doesn't ever just pop back into existence if it's been yielded.

Consider the situation where Arika is Camarilla and Malkavian, with an inert Ventrue-IC title. Another Methuselah flips out Hardestadt (Ventrue IC). This would contest Arika's title, but because her title is inert, she yields it immediately. (The last sentence of section 10 of the rulebook, just before 10.1, is about a vampire with the wrong clan/sect: "If he receives a new title, or if his title is contested (see Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately yields the old title.") When Arika becomes Ventrue again, she does not regain her title and start contesting it. It's gone.

beslin igor wrote: If Assamite have contract in play,and him become Malk with Derange,contract probably dont work until him become Assamite again,right?


All the ones I've just looked at that are relevant say things like "This Assamite may..." or "That Assamite may...", which would mean the action couldn't be taken by a non-Assamite, right.
The following user(s) said Thank You: beslin igor

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