file Kamiri wa Itherero blocked by a minion, use of Taking the Skin: Minion

26 Oct 2018 06:26 - 26 Oct 2018 06:32 #91509 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote:

Ankha wrote: You can't play cards "at the end of combat" or "at the end of the action"


Pretty sure you can. Freak drive and cat's guidance for example. You can play it after combat but still during an action. how is it not at the end of the action?

There is a moment when, right before it is still the action, and right after the action is over. It is the definition of the end of the action.
If you are playing an action modifier, you are still during the action, not at the end of the action (see examples below to understand why).
Freak Drive and Cats's Guidance are played after resolution of the action.
The printed cardtext of Freak Drive says: "Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action)". We are working on removing the "at the end" part (that is a wording) because it is incorrect logically.
For instance, Momentary Delay is also played during the same window and allows the action to continue. That means that it wasn't the end of the action after all.
You could bleed, be blocked, play Freak Drive* at superior, Momentary Delay*, then be blocked again, play Form of Mist, and then play Enkil Cog*. All * are played "at the end of the action."

Bloodartist wrote: Or are you introducing even more steps? If action was blocked and combat ensued and no further shenanigans were done (form of mist etc), the action will end immediately after combat.

It is not the case, since you can play Freak Drive. If the action had ended, you couldn't.

Bloodartist wrote: Here I see cards like freak drive played literally at the end of the action since thats all that's left of the action.

Wrong, the action can continue for instance.

Bloodartist wrote: Your argument that "there is no duration" is REALLY weak, since VTES cards are already played at ridiculous times. Such as psyche played literally in middle of rotschrecks resolving.

Rotschreck is played during a combat. Psyche! is played during a combat. None of them are played at the end of a phase or a step ("combat ends" doesn't end the combat immediately: you can play Taste of Vitae for instance, or Psyche! in our case).

Bloodartist wrote: It is far better in my opinion to have a clear step for something, rather than have cards playable at an ambiguous "after something" timing. I mean next turn is also after something. Doesn't define it clearly in my opinion.

"After" means "immediately after" in VTES. But I agree with you and we try to remove as many "before" and "after" as possible. As well as "begin" and "end".

Bloodartist wrote: VTES combat steps reminds me of real numbers, where there are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2. All I wanted was to understand this game and have a finite amount of combat steps.

Well, it is the way VTES was designed at the start: a few steps are described, then plenty of things happen in between.

Bloodartist wrote: All your explanations confuse me further and seems like the steps are only increasing.

It's contradictory: if you want clear steps instead of "before" or "after", then you can't complain because there are more steps.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 26 Oct 2018 06:32 by Ankha.

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26 Oct 2018 08:26 - 26 Oct 2018 08:29 #91514 by Bloodartist

Ankha wrote: There is a moment when, right before it is still the action, and right after the action is over. It is the definition of the end of the action.
If you are playing an action modifier, you are still during the action, not at the end of the action (see examples below to understand why).
Freak Drive and Cats's Guidance are played after resolution of the action.
The printed cardtext of Freak Drive says: "Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving the action)". We are working on removing the "at the end" part (that is a wording) because it is incorrect logically.


One: its not illogical.

Two: Why is "during an action" better option than "At the end of the action"? The latter makes things ordered, the former doesn't. Since we are talking about rules, it makes sense to have a defined order (even if the player chooses it himself).

For me it is obvious that "end of an action" is a step since there are several cards that are played during it and effects that are resolving during it. I see it simply as the last part of an action that happens after action itself has resolved. Once its over, the action is over and no action modifiers can be played.

Rather than have a philosphical debate of when does the action actually end, it is more important to know what is the last part of the action when cards can still be played. For me, it is a step called "end of the action". What is wrong with this?

"Do you believe in the power of the night?
If you want to go with me, refuse the light"
- Blutengel, Soultaker
Last edit: 26 Oct 2018 08:29 by Bloodartist.

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26 Oct 2018 12:00 #91516 by Ankha

Bloodartist wrote: Rather than have a philosphical debate of when does the action actually end, it is more important to know what is the last part of the action when cards can still be played. For me, it is a step called "end of the action". What is wrong with this?

You can call it as you wish. "at the end of the action (after resolution)" is simply an old wording that will disappear.

Bloodartist wrote: For me it is obvious that "end of an action" is a step since there are several cards that are played during it and effects that are resolving during it.

It's fine.

Bloodartist wrote: I see it simply as the last part of an action that happens after action itself has resolved. Once its over, the action is over and no action modifiers can be played.

That "end of the action part" can be over and still, the action continues (and more action modifiers can be played).

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