file Repo man and whether or not other Methuselah see the library during search

05 Aug 2019 18:04 #96169 by Kraus

We've already got rules in place for this: if you think someone's cheating via hidden information, you can call a judge to have them check that they're not.


Well, I mean, that's a tournament rule. What if it happens in casual play? Granted, I've never had any cheating issues happen in VTES because I simply don't play it often, but I've come across cheating of this sort many times in other games. I'd really like to avoid a situation after the game where it's like "show me the card" and the person is like "no."

No amount of rules will be able to rein in people who willingly and outrageously would be willing to cheat between friends.

In tournament environments we already have rules. You could always ask kindly before the game if everyone would agree to first of all respect the rules printed, and if necessary, abide by tournament rules as well.

For the record, I do whole heartedly understand why duel games require you to show cards that are fetched that have restrictions. It could be reinforced in VtES as well. It could. But it isn't, and we have a solution in place that requires a bit of investment from a judge.

It is not an ideal solution, but it is a solution. Just to make everything flow smoothly, I think it is absolutely something to take pride in that we don't, even at highest levels of playing, need to resort to judges checking fetches.

Still, you have the option to call for a judge.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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05 Aug 2019 19:11 - 05 Aug 2019 19:20 #96174 by TwoRazorReign

No amount of rules will be able to rein in people who willingly and outrageously would be willing to cheat between friends.


I disagree. If one could see, for instance, that the target of Govern is a younger vampire, that would likely stop the other person from cheating because they won't be able to get away with it in the moment.

Everything else you said refers to tournaments, which I do not participate in. So I'm coming at this from a different viewpoint than you. Instead of going to a judge, the only option is to confront the player afterward if cheating is suspected. But that's unlikely because if someone did cheat in this way, how would one ever suspect it?

And, I said this before in a dick-ish way, but I'll try to say it nicer this time: saying things like "No amount of rules will be able to rein in people who willingly and outrageously would be willing to cheat between friends" is kind of snobbish and insulting to the people who were playing with someone who did end up cheating. It kind of assumes that person is at fault for not playing with the right people instead of blaming a glaring issue with one of the most often used cards in the game. People are going to cheat if given the opportunity, friends or not. It's human nature, and that's why there are rules.
Last edit: 05 Aug 2019 19:20 by TwoRazorReign.

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05 Aug 2019 20:04 - 05 Aug 2019 20:27 #96175 by Kraus

And, I said this before in a dick-ish way, but I'll try to say it nicer this time: saying things like "No amount of rules will be able to rein in people who willingly and outrageously would be willing to cheat between friends" is kind of snobbish and insulting to the people who were playing with someone who did end up cheating. It kind of assumes that person is at fault for not playing with the right people instead of blaming a glaring issue with one of the most often used cards in the game. People are going to cheat if given the opportunity, friends or not. It's human nature, and that's why there are rules.

Thank you for the decent tone. I would like to address here, however, that no matter how I am trying to look at this from different perspectives, including yours, I cannot see how this is insulting you as a player. The cheater is the cheater, not the player that plays against them.

Let it here be made absolutely clear that this is not the intent - on the contrary, the people who cheat are here at fault, not people who play with them.

And if you have constant experience with playing with people that constantly attempt to cheat, I sincerely feel sorry for you. And any who has to bear with that. This is not snobbish to say, and I find it hard to understand how it would be taken in such a way - I would hope for everyone, everywhere, to experience a healthy and safe space to hobby in.

Having to play with cheaters is not one.

I do get it that not all people get to choose their company as well as others. All the more I feel sorry. It's a tough place.

This all being said, I from my whole heart, have to disagree with the last statement that people are always inclined to cheat. This is not the environment I have gamed, have learned to game, to live, to breath in - and will not choose to spend my time, hobby or otherwise, in such company. I have met people in some hobbies and gaming where there has been deliberate attempts to cheat, and I have forever decided to shun away from that company.

Thankfully I have had the luxury of choice.

Still, we have a healthy community of 60+ players (a rough estimate) in Finland that attend both events and casual games across 3+ cities. There might be some oddities in in the mix of players, of course, but I can from the bottom of my heart say that I have not yet met a player (that remains active) in Finland that I would accuse, ever, of deliberate cheating. Not in my 15 years of playing this game. I grew to treat others with respect, and have had the luxury of people paying me back with similar respect.

With all respect I argue that your view of people's inherent dishonesty is false. And if that is really a world in which you live, I hope things get better.

Let's articulate this at the conclusion as clearly as I can: this is in no way meant to be snobbish or anything of sort. And from here on, you can, at all points in time, have faith in that at least I never intend to insult a person with my posts. All the best. People, by default, do not mean to insult. I hope that is clear now and in the future.

Everything else you said refers to tournaments, which I do not participate in.

I would urge you to. :) A lot of decent people in events.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 05 Aug 2019 20:27 by Kraus.
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06 Aug 2019 01:36 #96180 by Kilrauko

Well, I mean, that's a tournament rule. What if it happens in casual play? Granted, I've never had any cheating issues happen in VTES because I simply don't play it often, but I've come across cheating of this sort many times in other games. I'd really like to avoid a situation after the game where it's like "show me the card" and the person is like "no."


The Manipulative aspects inherit in "play to win" rule end when the methuselah is ousted and the game ends. If players have difficulty to understand the difference between social interaction that happens during the game versus one that happens outside it, one might wish to ponder whether or not that's a healthy situation to be in and continue to be in. Not just for this hobby but for any situation involving competitive nature. That's not meant as an insult, but as well meant advice for life. I have few hothead friends who take it very personally and can be quite intimidating during competitive situations but I've never had to fear for them to not understand the difference between social situations. Usually they're also apologetic if they've raised their voice, stood up, made accusations etc. as with age they've come to realize how the heat of the moment can take them. I also remember from over decade back it was customary for a ousted methuselah in casual games to reveal their unrevealed crypt and hand after they leave the game. Not to mention allowing people freedom to check, discuss and play their decks. It could be used as solution for governs (but not for already mentioned fetches in the topic.) For that there was always possibility to get someone outside the current table to weight in on the matter, to give "neutral" viewpoint. Those might have been just the social norms fostered under the prince of Tampere and maintained by the group playing there. I personally had no trouble fitting in as that culture was similar to one we already were following with bunch of friends loaning and passing cards and decks around pre 2001. Those are also the customs we've taken in to this 2019 started group as it enhances player experience and insight on the last moments of the game. Not to mention helps new players on their deck building prospects and tactical thinking.

That casual group of friends playing Jyhad back in 1999-2000, the "official" Tampere prince group between 2001-2009 along with other city groups visited during that timeframe or the current one where the questions in the OP stemmed from all were "cheater free" from my experience, mainly because "we're bunch of sensible likeminded people, let's play VTES" mentality. I can see how games with total strangers in local gamestore could feel different to a player especially if there is no social norms advocated and maintained by event hosts in clear manner. Social norms meaning here things that are outside the realm of what rulebook can or should provide in great detail. They could be included but that would also mean writing "101 on how to be sensible person" to the rulebook of a collectible card game. Tournament rules are very open on those aspects with few examples for a reason as the cases can be as many as there are human players.

There might also be groups whose social norms and preferences do not match those "new" rules. There could be groups out there who enjoy cheating while playing the game, taking the whole "subterfuge" and "play to win" aspects past live-action roleplaying levels. For all we know there are still groups playing for ante and using original wording in the monocle to gain leverages long since ruled to be outside the rules. While hosting official event they would need to abide by the tournament norms set by the game and community at large to be recognized, but outside of that, what right do we have to claim their way as wrong one for them if they honestly enjoy it? They have the cards and are hopefully harming no-one with them, and while we might not agree with their norms neither can we really affect it. We can distance ourself from some aspects of theirs as anybody can and that's also what I've personally been doing with this post about cheaters and what I feel others in this topic have made with theirs. In the end it's matter of choice and freedom to make decisions where one spends their time. I hope everyone gets as good deal on it as I've personally been granted. Or at least makes the best out of what they've been granted. Among the worst cases for player is that the local event host/prince is the one breaking the rules and social norms and in that situation it should be in the community's best interest to take the matter to national coordinator. For non-VEKN affiliated friend group it's quagmire of social contracts, expectations and so forth.

In that sense it's a massive effort for payoff that's uncertain to try to provide in great detail and cover each and every possible way a player can cheat during game to be part of casual game rules. Because it wouldn't be just cards, it would require checking for sleight of hand with counter manipulation, to a degree where each methuselah keeps somehow tally on each counter and card in play, the order they've played, the actions taken and the wording on each card in current legal playlist(as with pdf expansions and proxys becoming common, nothing prevents "tweaking" a card text a little to fit the cheater's need.) Overall the situation would remain same, where due to other player actions and the social norms they maintain, the cheater either chooses not to cheat, cheats and gets caught (with punishment or not depending on social norms) or cheats and won't be caught. People already do that, even if they won't constantly know it by maintaining and fostering certain behaviour and customs in the group. I personally feel the closer those are to tournament rules and practises along with open and respectful behaviour the less incentives cheaters have to cheat in the first place. It's why I try to foster such behaviour as "norm" and why I openly say "I might be wrong on this, let's play it like this but I'll check elsewhere to confirm" and then own the mistake if I'm wrong.

In the OP the matter was not over "cheating" but over knowledge gained on deck contents during the game (not before or after it) along with how the retrieve is performed as without clear card text or official ruling on it, other cards could be used to manipulate it for benefit. It's not really my priviledge to make decisions but I feel the discussion over social aspect of cheating could be separated to its own thread with link to this one as one reason for it along with link in this one pointing to that. Might be just the inner categorizer in me that wishes it and that can be ignored if others feel discussion of it is fine here as is. Gameplay and game rules discussion relating to whether or not there needs to be clarifications, card text changes and so forth on Repo Man could continue here or in other thread (for overall situation with it and cards like it) if such is felt as better serving the community in the long run.

I think there are two completely different subjects and while they overlapped here I feel they also have inherently different origins and eventual conclusions. Both stand to benefit from further discussion and viewpoints.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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07 Aug 2019 19:42 #96202 by TwoRazorReign

Thank you for the decent tone. I would like to address here, however, that no matter how I am trying to look at this from different perspectives, including yours, I cannot see how this is insulting you as a player.


It wasn't insulting to me as a player. It was just generally insulting, but in a funny way. I'll clarify.

My original comment was “Shouldn't the first problem fixed be Govern the Unaligned at superior? If one never influences out the target card, there's no way to know if the vampire is younger. Bloat all day, no one would know.”

Snodig replied “Not sure what sort of people you play with, but I have to believe my players won't actively cheat.”

You saw my (admittedly uncalled for) reply to Snodig. I think I’ve mentioned after this exchange that I’ve never experienced cheating in VTES because I don’t play it often. Heck, I only really pay attention to this forum because I find it fun to try and fix the rulebook. I was making a statement about Govern the Unaligned and how it enables one to cheat easily if one was so inclined. That’s it.

When a comment like “hey, this card enables cheating and maybe should be fixed” is met with “who are you playing with? I don’t play with people who cheat”, It’s the weird narcissism and tinge of judgy-ness in the comment that’s “insulting” (insulting is in quotes because this isn’t really about me feeling insulted, I rather found the comment very funny. It’s more about there was no awareness that the comment may be seen as self-serving and judgy (and hence, “insulting”). This was the object of my [again, admittedly uncalled for] ridicule).

Your comment “No amount of rules will be able to rein in people who willingly and outrageously would be willing to cheat between friends” is “insulting” because, again, it’s not replying to the observation made about Govern, rather it’s introducing a commentary on how you feel about people who “willingly and outrageously” cheat their friends. The comment is all about you. Then your post goes on to say how you “feel sorry for me” for problems I didn’t even know I had. (I also found this hilarious). I mean, do you really not see the humor in any of this? Do you care to have a discussion about the card I mentioned that enables cheating instead of yourself, there, Mr. bottom of your heart? :)

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07 Aug 2019 19:56 #96203 by Mewcat
I tacitly state that a game should require no outside observer and as little book keeping as possible to function. With this is mind I claim that that govern and other cards are sloppily made. Is this the biggest problem in vtes? Not even close but it is symptomatic of a larger problem, rigid thinking or no thought.
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