file Synesios

04 Oct 2019 21:19 #97240 by vragozakas
Synesios was created by vragozakas
Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?
Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?
M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?

Normally only one m.o.o.t. is allowed by rulebook:
1.6.2. Master Cards
Master cards are cards you play in your role as a Methuselah. There are two types of master cards: out-of-turn and the regular master cards. Some types of regular master cards are: locations and Disciplines (and there are other regular master cards that don't have a specific type). Regular master cards are played during your master phase. You can normally play only one regular master card during your master phase. Out-of-turn master cards can be played during other players' turns. By playing an out-of-turn master card, you are effectively "borrowing" from your next master phase -- that is, playing the card now instead of waiting until your next master phase.

and

4.Out-of-turn: You may play an out-of-turn master card whenever appropriate during another player's turn. Doing so counts against your next master phase, even if the Out-of-turn master card is cancelled (see Master Phase, sec. 5). You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn master card on your own turn.

Relevant card text:

Name: Synesios
Rarity: R2
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: True Brujah
Capacity: 8
Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
Independent: Synesios has two votes. You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity. Scarce.

Best regards! And bleed responsibly :P

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04 Oct 2019 21:59 #97241 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote: Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?

No

vragozakas wrote: Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?

Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."

vragozakas wrote: M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?

Why should them?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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04 Oct 2019 22:54 - 04 Oct 2019 22:56 #97244 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Synesios

Ankha wrote:

vragozakas wrote: Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?

No

vragozakas wrote: Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?

Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."


I don't think there is any confusion since Synesios clearly says "your NEXT master phase" (ie. it only counteracts the MPA lost by playing an out-of-turn master). It also says "AN extra MPA", implying only one extra master phase action per turn.

However you are also referring to rules text, where as the golden rule states that card text > rules. I don't think its very good idea to claim that rules are stronger than card text in general since they aren't. Rather we must examine why the card text of Synesios does not allow what Vragozakas implied.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
Last edit: 04 Oct 2019 22:56 by Bloodartist.

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06 Oct 2019 15:17 #97263 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Synesios

Bloodartist wrote: However you are also referring to rules text, where as the golden rule states that card text > rules. I don't think its very good idea to claim that rules are stronger than card text in general since they aren't.


Card text will trump the rules, as per the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text contradicts / is incompatible with the rules text. Where card text mucks around in a particular area, it doesn't completely overturn all rule text in that area - just whatever it doesn't work with. Since the rules say ""You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase", and nothing on Synesios's card text says otherwise, the rule continues to apply.

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08 Oct 2019 13:53 #97294 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Synesios

jamesatzephyr wrote: Card text will trump the rules, as per the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text contradicts / is incompatible with the rules text. Where card text mucks around in a particular area, it doesn't completely overturn all rule text in that area - just whatever it doesn't work with. Since the rules say ""You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase", and nothing on Synesios's card text says otherwise, the rule continues to apply.


Which is why I pointed out that the key here was Synesios' text, not the rulebook text, since card text trumps the rules.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones

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09 Oct 2019 05:53 #97307 by vragozakas
Replied by vragozakas on topic Synesios

Ankha wrote:

vragozakas wrote: Can I play more than one master out of turn per Synesios special text?

No

Was predicting so

Ankha wrote:

vragozakas wrote: Why can't I borrow more than one m.p.a.?

Rulebook. "You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase."

This is strange, because it's not a direct reply to my question.
We currently play in a game environment wich allows players to play 2/3 masters phase action per turn, wich is kind of boring (i.m.o.). Synesios is a minion wich could completely trump this behavior with his special, if only there wasn't a rule that for no significant reason disallows more than one m.o.o.t. per round.
The general reasoning behind the m.o.o.t. limit is that you "borrow" your next m.p.a., that is why deck like anson/cybele/nana can't play 2-3 m.o.o.t., there is no guarantee that minion with that special will be around on next master phase.
Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.

Anka wrote:

vragozakas wrote: M.o.o.t. should gain the reminder "limited"?

Why should them?

As a reminder, of a piece of rules text that is long 13 words drowned in a document that is really long and non so easy to remember in its totality.

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