file Synesios

14 Oct 2019 08:29 - 14 Oct 2019 08:30 #97384 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote: I still fail to notice the difference between:


You seem fixated on the verb. Don't.

Instead, notice the lack of the word NEXT in the rulebook text.

The rulebook refers to your master phase. Synesios refers to your NEXT master phase. How difficult is it to understand that these are not the same? This is a question of timing, not semantics.

"Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods."
- Tormund Giantsbane, Game of Thrones
Last edit: 14 Oct 2019 08:30 by Bloodartist.

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14 Oct 2019 09:43 - 14 Oct 2019 09:48 #97388 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Synesios

vragozakas wrote: Thanks for this replies, You're helping me understand vtes even further. I still fail to notice the difference between:

rulebook wrote: 5. Master Phase
You receive master phase actions during your master phase. A master phase action represents your personal activity during the turn as a Methuselah.

And

that bastard of Synesios wrote: Name: Synesios
[BL:R2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: True Brujah
Group: 2
Capacity: 8
Discipline: obf ser POT PRE TEM
Independent: Synesios has 2 votes (titled). You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase. Synesios cannot use cards that require Celerity [cel]. Scarce.
Artist: Durwin Talon


The verb is gain rather then receive, but I think they're synonyms. I think the examples with bank account are more similar to the anson/cybele/nana/parthenon type of cards. You should have some more mpas on your master phase, if they are still around. Synesios is a way to grant you 1 mpa when you should gain that mpa.
The only thing that right now makes me doubt of my own reasoning is the adjective "extra" in Synesios card text, but this can be relevant only if the cost of a moot is a "natural/original/standard" m.p.a., not a "extra" mpa.

I don't want to sound stubborn, and I know all of this is a sort of scy/fy-vtes, but nonetheless is a nice exercise for the comprehension of rules and mechanics of this game.


If visualizing it in the mind is difficult, there's no harm in going physical with it. That's the way I personally work the mechanics of trap out, using simple counters.

You need the following.
4 VTES cards with green back (library), to designate the turns.
4 Amber back (crypt) cards to designate where one player turn ends and another turn begins.
One counter type (influence/blood counter) to designate your master phase action that you gain on your own master phase.
Another counter(key, token, dice etc.) to designate played out of turn master card that by rules gives you one less master phase action on the next turn.
The Edge to show where in the line the current turn is happening.

Lay the cards face down with the backs up on the table to form a line in pattern amber, green, amber, green, amber, green, amber, green. For easiness we'll simulate a end game where only two players are left, so first and third turns are yours, second and fourth your prey-predator opponents. Place edge on the first green card to mark it is your first turn.

During your turn's master phase you gain one master phase action (place the counter on the first green card) during your master phase, you either use it don't, either way once your turn ends, it's gone. Remove it from the green card and move the edge to the second green card.

Now is your opponents first turn. You gain no master phase actions and we do not use counters here to mark that your opponent does. They try to play a master card with their action, but you decide to play Sudden Reversal out of turn master to cancel it. Place the second type counter(key, dice) on the second green card to designate that you played master out of turn on your opponents turn. Now you also use Synesios ability "You may pay a pool when you play a Master: Out-of-Turn card to gain an extra master phase action in your next master phase." Note where the edge is at this very moment. It's on the second green backed card, noting it's not your turn, it's your opponents turn, therefore we are not "in your next master phase" and do not place the master phase action counter yet on the third green card on the line. Eventually the turn ends and we move the edge to the third green backed card.

At this point, your line with cards, counters and edge should look like following; amber, green, amber, green (master out of turn counter), amber, green (edge), amber, green.

Your second turn in this example begins. By the rules when master phase happens;

"If you've played an out-of-turn master card against this master phase (even if it was cancelled), then you gain one fewer master phase actions than normal (see Master Cards, sec. 1.6.2)."

You have counter on the second green card noting you've played master out of turn since your last turn. Instead adding the first type of counter we used on turn one to indicate master phase action, remove the master out of turn counter from second green card. You would have zero master phase actions normally. However you paid 1 pool for Synesios ability when you played out of turn master, as it is now your next turn after it was paid, you gain that master phase action. Place one master phase action counter on the third green card. You can play mastes as normally with it. You either use it don't, either way once your turn ends, it's gone. Remove it from the third green card and move the edge to the fourth green card.

It is now your opponets second turn. For the purpose of how Synesios interaction with master phase actions and timing the example is done.

I really think going the trouble of laying some crypt and library cards and performing the above example helps to understand how it works. Just like using three counters on Trap card as a pool that's refreshed when cards are played does. There's massive difference between being stubborn for stubborness sake and just failing to notice the difference. I think if you perform the physical example I laid out in this reply you'll see what the difference is.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 14 Oct 2019 09:48 by Kilrauko. Reason: Edited for better clarity.
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14 Oct 2019 15:56 #97390 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Synesios
Why is this thread still going on? Per the rulebook, with emphasized text:

Out-of-turn: You may play an out-of-turn master card whenever appropriate during another player's turn. Doing so counts against your next master phase, even if the Out-of-turn master card is cancelled (see Master Phase, sec. 5). You cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn master card on your own turn.

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14 Oct 2019 19:15 #97392 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Synesios

kschaefer wrote: Why is this thread still going on? Per the rulebook, with emphasized text:


In the first page, on the second reply by OP the reason has been given.

vragozakas wrote: We currently play in a game environment wich allows players to play 2/3 masters phase action per turn, wich is kind of boring (i.m.o.). Synesios is a minion wich could completely trump this behavior with his special, if only there wasn't a rule that for no significant reason disallows more than one m.o.o.t. per round.
The general reasoning behind the m.o.o.t. limit is that you "borrow" your next m.p.a., that is why deck like anson/cybele/nana can't play 2-3 m.o.o.t., there is no guarantee that minion with that special will be around on next master phase.
Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.


After that it's been attempt to clarify how their understanding on Synerios working is different from how it factually works. Hopefully this highlight of the earlier reply on this thread answered your question.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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15 Oct 2019 01:42 #97395 by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Synesios

Kilrauko wrote:

vragozakas wrote: Synesios's special doesen't work that way, he restore's owner m.p.a. right away, there's a great deck here (i.m.h.o.) trumped by a rule made in a time when cybelotron wasen't an issue.


After that it's been attempt to clarify how their understanding on Synerios working is different from how it factually works. Hopefully this highlight of the earlier reply on this thread answered your question.

That rule was probably in Jyhad, but I only have a VtES edition rulebook handy and it's in there. They could have given Synesios the ability to grant additional out-of-turn masters when he was created, but the designers did not.

If your desire is for Synesios to be "better" to help against these MMPA decks, then you're focusing in the wrong direction. Buffing cards like Synesios does nothing; MMPA is the problem and you have to fix it at the root by eliminating the problematic situations/combinations.
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15 Oct 2019 17:26 #97402 by self biased
Replied by self biased on topic Synesios

kschaefer wrote: That rule was probably in Jyhad, but I only have a VtES edition rulebook handy and it's in there. They could have given Synesios the ability to grant additional out-of-turn masters when he was created, but the designers did not.

If your desire is for Synesios to be "better" to help against these MMPA decks, then you're focusing in the wrong direction. Buffing cards like Synesios does nothing; MMPA is the problem and you have to fix it at the root by eliminating the problematic situations/combinations.


additionally, if the problem is MMPA, the solution is probably not more MMPA.
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