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TwoRazorReign wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

I'm so done with this conversation.

Ta-tah, dahlings!

By petulantly exiting the discussion instead of answering my question, you admit that requiring VTES cards for proxies in tournaments is a dumb rule that we are following for no real reason. I win!

Nobody is forcing you to follow this rule. Make alternative player organization, deal with Paradox and play wherever you like.

Lönkka wrote:

I'm so done with this conversation.

Ta-tah, dahlings!

By petulantly exiting the discussion instead of answering my question, you admit that requiring VTES cards for proxies in tournaments is a dumb rule that we are following for no real reason. I win!

I'm so done with this conversation.

Ta-tah, dahlings!

Lönkka wrote:

Vlad wrote:

Small need only because we are less and less players...

No. The needs were small because, they really didn't need any special cards.

Again, proxies weren't allowed when you had this experience. There were small needs because everybody participating already owned enough cards to participate, and those that didn't stayed home. Had the people who stayed home showed up, you'd have given out a lot more cards.

From the two other heroes I see a lot of cornercase speculation.
Sure those things could happen, but I don't really expect stuff like that to happen.

We just allowed proxies in specfied tournaments.
Let's see how that works before allowing them in all tournaments.

Why? What is the reason? I am asking now for the third time in this thread: why do we need to hang onto this rule? What is the benefit of doing this? I see it being more restrictive than beneficial for new players.

While we're at it, some people might have problems getting B&W photocopies so why not just change rules to allow small bits of paper inserted to sleeves to say which card it is proxying.

Or you could take sufficient number or, say, unsleeved Yu-Gi-Oh cards, write the name of proxied card to it with a felt tip pen and start bleeding like it is 1999!

We’re discussing backing cards. You’re referring to the actual print outs. While I agree that the rules for print outs should remain as is, this is a completely different discussion.

If it was supposed to be funny, I can't find anything to laugh about what you said...

Vlad wrote:

Small need only because we are less and less players...

No. The needs were small because, they really didn't need any special cards.

From the two other heroes I see a lot of cornercase speculation.
Sure those things could happen, but I don't really expect stuff like that to happen.

We just allowed proxies in specfied tournaments.
Let's see how that works before allowing them in all tournaments.


While we're at it, some people might have problems getting B&W photocopies so why not just change rules to allow small bits of paper inserted to sleeves to say which card it is proxying.

Or you could take sufficient number or, say, unsleeved Yu-Gi-Oh cards, write the name of proxied card to it with a felt tip pen and start bleeding like it is 1999!

Lönkka wrote:

James, is this happening somewhere or, like with TwoRazorReign, pure speculation?

Of course it's speculation. Proxies just became legal, like, 2 weeks ago.

EDIT: Most every year I've told other Finns that if there are cards that someone needs for making the best possible deck (or whatever) at EC, they should just send me a list.

Very seldom there has been anyone asking for any cards and usually it has been just 2-4 cards all in all.

At least in my experience, there has been very small need.

Were proxies legal when you had this experience? If not, your experience is not really relevant.

Lönkka wrote:

James, is this happening somewhere or, like with TwoRazorReign, pure speculation?

Since the change isn't in effect yet, and new players can't happily attend and play in (most) tournaments with photocopied cards yet, would you like to explain how it can already be happening? I mean, seriously? You're expecting me to provide proof of something that's happening that cannot happen at the moment?

Small need only because we are less and less players...

James, is this happening somewhere or, like with TwoRazorReign, pure speculation?

EDIT: Most every year I've told other Finns that if there are cards that someone needs for making the best possible deck (or whatever) at EC, they should just send me a list.

Very seldom there has been anyone asking for any cards and usually it has been just 2-4 cards all in all.

At least in my experience, there has been very small need.

Lönkka wrote:

Should we actually start worrying about the "problem" of being "forced" to use VTES cards only as backing when the first player who doesn't have VTES cards to use as backing appears in the tournament circuit and also no one present is able to loan/give him/her enough cards to be used as backing?

My bigger concern, personally, would be the player who starts playing in, say, a country that has two or three tournaments a year. They put together a deck they really enjoy with Stanislava, Ingrid Rossler, four copies of Enkil Cog (photocopied from the one in their play group), multiple copies of Freak Drive (photocopied from the three copies in their play group), multiple copies of Mind Rape (photocopied from the two copies in their play group) etc. and have a blast in some games, and reaches a final table in a tournament.

Then the nationals for their country come around. Various players come out of the woodwork and make a special effort to attend because it's the big tournament of the year. Then the new player is told that if they want to turn up and play their favourite (maybe only!) deck, they'll need to blow $100 on singles from Ebay.

As long as all the cards are from the same game there can't be any form of cheating.

Lönkka wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

If the concern is that having inconsistent card dimensions for backing cards will lead to cheating, then make the rule that all backing cards need consistent dimensions..

Should we actually start worrying about the "problem" of being "forced" to use VTES cards only as backing WHEN THE FIRST PLAYER WHO DOESN'T HAVE VTES CARDS TO USE AS BACKING APPEARS IN THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT AND ALSO NO ONE PRESENT IS ABLE TO LOAN/GIVE HIM/HER ENOUGH CARDS TO BE USED AS BACKING?

Sorry for the caps!

Well, no, because that player would simply not show up to the tournament. How would that player know there are people there just giving out cards? They'll read the rule that they have to have VTES cards and think, "Hey, I don't have any cards. No tournament for me." They're not going to ask if there are people giving away cards at the tournament.

You seem to be defending the rule on the basis of it being not a major restriction to tournament entry. Okay, your point in all caps is taken. Can you answer why the rule exists in the first place? I still haven't gotten an answer from anybody in this thread other than because the rule already exists for VEKN expansions.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

If the concern is that having inconsistent card dimensions for backing cards will lead to cheating, then make the rule that all backing cards need consistent dimensions..

Should we actually start worrying about the "problem" of being "forced" to use VTES cards only as backing WHEN THE FIRST PLAYER WHO DOESN'T HAVE VTES CARDS TO USE AS BACKING APPEARS IN THE TOURNAMENT CIRCUIT AND ALSO NO ONE PRESENT IS ABLE TO LOAN/GIVE HIM/HER ENOUGH CARDS TO BE USED AS BACKING?

Sorry for the caps!

Ashur wrote:

Rémi wrote:

Howewer, I would say this is irrelevant since using a genuine card + proxy in the same sleeve make that sleeve heavier than a regular sleeve.
Following your point, using proxies not in every sleeve of a deck means a "cheating" risk.

But it is still better than allowing people to print their own cards, or use whatever backers they want. Only allowing VTES cards means the exact measurements, which is more important than weight.

If the concern is that having inconsistent card dimensions for backing cards will lead to cheating, then make the rule that all backing cards need consistent dimensions.

Non-existant user wrote:

Building a deck list is much more of a barrier than getting 102 commons...

Not really. The VTES One blog lists tournament-quality deck archetypes. Just print one of those suckers out and you've got a tournament-quality deck.