On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
23 Nov 2011 09:46 #15609
by Ohlmann
Replied by Ohlmann on topic Re: On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
Both versions are the worst way to deal with Parity Shift. Not because of the limit to 4 (why not), but because it make Sabbat and Camarilla even more similar. Why not add Kholos to the mix while we're at it ?
Anyway, the (supposed) weakness of sabbat-specific vote is another issue altogether. Especially since most people prefer to avoid errata if at all possible.
Anyway, the (supposed) weakness of sabbat-specific vote is another issue altogether. Especially since most people prefer to avoid errata if at all possible.
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23 Nov 2011 10:29 #15614
by Ankha
Some wrote that it is a "10 pool swing". Neonate breach can do up 16 pool damage. A Smiling Jack with 4 counters means 4+8+12+20=44 pool/blood has been burned. Should they be banned because the numbers seem too high?
But then, it's the same as comparing a card without any prerequisite (Computer Hacking) to a card with a prerequisite (Intimidation).
Sure, your crypt will be made up of Princes. But this is true also for a Presence crypt if you plan playing Intimidation. Does it mean that Intimidation is overpowered? Surely not, it's just better than its "generic" counterpart.
Also, I've seen many games where the Parity Shift was useless because one had more pool than everyone else (which doesn't help at all, especially when trying to kill one's prey) or situations where the only minions untapped when drawing a Parity Shift were a non-prince support vampire.
I mean, the prerequisites cannot be that easily dismissed.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
Agreed. Why would be 4 pool acceptable anyway? I'd also be curious of knowing what have changed in the last few years that makes PS suddenly overpowered. Crypt accelerators? Info Highway and Zillah's Valley have been existing for a long time now. Push votes? Stealth? Nothing has changed.Both versions are the worst way to deal with Parity Shift. Not because of the limit to 4 (why not), but because it make Sabbat and Camarilla even more similar. Why not add Kholos to the mix while we're at it ?
Some wrote that it is a "10 pool swing". Neonate breach can do up 16 pool damage. A Smiling Jack with 4 counters means 4+8+12+20=44 pool/blood has been burned. Should they be banned because the numbers seem too high?
You'd rather compare it to Conservative Agitation, since the power of both varies with the number of players.I think Bakija's core complaint is correct, though, that Parity Shift's swing is just too great.
Look at the staple vote card -- KRC. 3 + 1, max swing of 3, 1 more here and there depending on other card text.
But then, it's the same as comparing a card without any prerequisite (Computer Hacking) to a card with a prerequisite (Intimidation).
Sure, your crypt will be made up of Princes. But this is true also for a Presence crypt if you plan playing Intimidation. Does it mean that Intimidation is overpowered? Surely not, it's just better than its "generic" counterpart.
Also, I've seen many games where the Parity Shift was useless because one had more pool than everyone else (which doesn't help at all, especially when trying to kill one's prey) or situations where the only minions untapped when drawing a Parity Shift were a non-prince support vampire.
I mean, the prerequisites cannot be that easily dismissed.
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23 Nov 2011 11:50 - 23 Nov 2011 11:55 #15618
by Väinämöinen
Replied by Väinämöinen on topic Re: On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
@Ankha I agree completely.
IMO, Parity shift is a strong, but "jump through hoops" card that does not need fixing especially when there are several other powerful cards needing change.Without it, or with it nerfed down, Sabbath vote decks would have more toys than Camarilla, it's one thing that makes camarilla vote worth playing. And furthermore it's not a finisher card, it's survive early card. Shifting for 2 in the endgame is not worth the overhead. What's next, [sarcastic] changing Govern the Unaligned?? it's in many TWDA decks, very strong card with two strong uses, one of which is great bloat/accelerate function, gives "3 pool swing" and has practically no prerequisites...[/sarcastic]
IMO, Parity shift is a strong, but "jump through hoops" card that does not need fixing especially when there are several other powerful cards needing change.Without it, or with it nerfed down, Sabbath vote decks would have more toys than Camarilla, it's one thing that makes camarilla vote worth playing. And furthermore it's not a finisher card, it's survive early card. Shifting for 2 in the endgame is not worth the overhead. What's next, [sarcastic] changing Govern the Unaligned?? it's in many TWDA decks, very strong card with two strong uses, one of which is great bloat/accelerate function, gives "3 pool swing" and has practically no prerequisites...[/sarcastic]
Last edit: 23 Nov 2011 11:55 by Väinämöinen.
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23 Nov 2011 12:05 #15620
by bakija
A few of them? I'm not sure where you are going here.
Replied by bakija on topic Re: On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
And how many Parity Shift decks were based on the new KoT crypts? Because I've noticed that a lot of people like Dmitra, Mary-Anne and those cool princes/justicar from the last set.
A few of them? I'm not sure where you are going here.
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23 Nov 2011 12:11 #15623
by bakija
There is noting remotely sudden about it. Parity Shift has always been insanely overpowered. Since day 1. Lots of effort was put into retroactively making it less overpowered in many of the sets that came out in the last 10 years ("stronger" Sabbat and Independent political actions; cards that obliquely or directly hose Parity Shift). It hasn't really worked that well, as Parity Shift is still insanely overpowered. Yes, non Camarilla vote strategies are certainly better now than they were 10 years ago, such that people play them and they win occasionally. Parity Shift is sill insanely overpowered.
Replied by bakija on topic Re: On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
I'd also be curious of knowing what have changed in the last few years that makes PS suddenly overpowered.
There is noting remotely sudden about it. Parity Shift has always been insanely overpowered. Since day 1. Lots of effort was put into retroactively making it less overpowered in many of the sets that came out in the last 10 years ("stronger" Sabbat and Independent political actions; cards that obliquely or directly hose Parity Shift). It hasn't really worked that well, as Parity Shift is still insanely overpowered. Yes, non Camarilla vote strategies are certainly better now than they were 10 years ago, such that people play them and they win occasionally. Parity Shift is sill insanely overpowered.
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23 Nov 2011 12:18 #15624
by henrik
I think it's mostly because of WW/CCCP cancelling the production and VEKN "taking over". Lots of people hope/acts like/want/think this will lead to a complete change in how rules, errata, card design etc are done.
Parity Shift has always been one of the strongest cards in the game, so it's no big surprise a lot of people wants it nerfed.
Replied by henrik on topic Re: On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".
Agreed. Why would be 4 pool acceptable anyway? I'd also be curious of knowing what have changed in the last few years that makes PS suddenly overpowered. Crypt accelerators? Info Highway and Zillah's Valley have been existing for a long time now. Push votes? Stealth? Nothing has changed.Both versions are the worst way to deal with Parity Shift. Not because of the limit to 4 (why not), but because it make Sabbat and Camarilla even more similar. Why not add Kholos to the mix while we're at it ?
Some wrote that it is a "10 pool swing". Neonate breach can do up 16 pool damage. A Smiling Jack with 4 counters means 4+8+12+20=44 pool/blood has been burned. Should they be banned because the numbers seem too high?
I think it's mostly because of WW/CCCP cancelling the production and VEKN "taking over". Lots of people hope/acts like/want/think this will lead to a complete change in how rules, errata, card design etc are done.
Parity Shift has always been one of the strongest cards in the game, so it's no big surprise a lot of people wants it nerfed.
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