file A debate on diablerie, Angelo-Promo, Revelation of the sire

19 Aug 2013 12:59 #53399 by Arthur Volts
Regarding the Pander, it was always more of a token bone thrown to the clanless, accepting them as a respected clan to stop the Civil War and perhaps prevent a future break in the ranks. It also created a nice group of vamps willing to throw themselves in the first wave during crusades, because they want to prove themselves.


I simply feel "Revelation of the Sire" is more about a sire correcting past mistakes or taking in a wayward vampire than about the Caitiff or Pander specifically. Since they are both Clanless, regardless of the political labels granting them clan status, they aren't a clan and any, but the most ardent supporters of Joseph Pander's cause would most certainly jump at the chance of being accepted by a real clan.

Again, it's not game breaking. I come across so many cards in older sets that haven't been updated and feel they need to be brought up to speed.

I still feel Angelo could be an "ANY" group. It fits his lore and doesn't destroy group balance. There are ways for Blood Brothers to use the disciplines of any other Blood Brother of the same circle, so saying he isn't important for the Kiev circle because he doesn't have protean is sort of moot.

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19 Aug 2013 13:30 #53400 by Ohlmann

I still feel Angelo could be an "ANY" group. It fits his lore and doesn't destroy group balance. There are ways for Blood Brothers to use the disciplines of any other Blood Brother of the same circle, so saying he isn't important for the Kiev circle because he doesn't have protean is sort of moot.


Note that it don't fit all that well his lore to go to Kiev. He is described in America, and is destroyed in America. Going litteraly to the other end of the world is pretty strange.

But, most importantly : you didn't give any reason to give him ANY grouping. Why not giving Saulot ANY grouping ? He is pretty mobile too, and kind of important for salubri deck. Same deal for a lot of non titled vampire.

Also, the Kiev circle tend to be the one who work the best, because stealth bleed is the better plan for Blood brother, and protean and being cap 4 are good argument for that. So in essence, it's giving an additional toy to the one circle who need it the less, as well as giving a CEL FOR minion to every group, which can add unforeseen to some non blood brother deck.

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19 Aug 2013 15:02 #53402 by Reyda

Note that it don't fit all that well his lore to go to Kiev. He is described in America, and is destroyed in America. Going litteraly to the other end of the world is pretty strange.

but of course having ancient greek Vampire like Menelas in chicago and transylvanian vampires like Velya in boston, america, is absolutely not canon right ? :silly:

Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
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19 Aug 2013 16:08 #53406 by Ohlmann

but of course having ancient greek Vampire like Menelas in chicago and transylvanian vampires like Velya in boston, america, is absolutely not canon right ? :silly:


Just in case you are genuiningly misunderstanding : they are canon since their descriptions are that they emigrated to the new world. I don't really remember Angelo doing the same and he was destroyed in the united state.

Now he can take a plane like any other vampire who don't have a political position, like my example Saulot. As I said, almost any untitled vampire could be justified in the ANY group. I don't see any reason in the lore to justify Angelo more, and the entire argumentation of Arthur lie in "it fit lore" (without explaining why more than anybody else) and "it make sense" (without explaining why it make "ANY" sense, if you pardon the pun)

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19 Aug 2013 17:13 #53408 by ReverendRevolver
Nobody else needs to be any grouping, save for non-uniques. Ever.

Saulot got around ALOT. But i think ohlmanns point was the blood brothers are cooked up and used in one city. Angelo is the entirety of the functioning members of the circle he was created as part of. Im at work ir id site the pages in kmw on Angelo.

The point isnt moot. Heres a better proposition, for a REAL CLAN with real reasons:
Stanislava should be any grouping. Shes the only Gangrel inner circle member, the gangrel suck comparex to other clans in vtes, whereas they dont suck in the canon. Gangrel in every grouping are cam and could use her support.

See? Even having reqsons doesnt make it a good idea. Really, better gangrel need printed. Wish i would have submittexideas before testing started for the indy set. They need help, maybe a prince, and solid awesome vamps, good midcaps.

Grouping is all a vtes thing. Hadestadt is g4, and sired jan pieterzoon from g2. Vasantanessa is g2, her sire is g5 unmada. Grouping is for balance. Convert has the any grouping because anarch needed it. Nobody else needs it, and its only logical for non uniques.

Angelo can enduce frenzy in blood brotherz. Thats one of his things. Make an adv version with a spirit marionette type of rush action. Angelo will then be cometwly fleshed out.

RoTs is a cornercase relic you can use if you want. I have like 100 cards id like to see more than reprinted revelation ots.

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28 Aug 2013 14:21 #53683 by Arthur Volts
I think it's shortsighted to think that only non-unique vampires should have "ANY" as a group. It's vehicle to prop up and keep relevant, older groupings which are weaker compared to newer vampires.

We can talk about balance all we want, but lets be honest, there are glaring holes in that argument in terms of power and competitiveness regarding certain groups.

If someone is playing with certain groups of vamps, it's due to lack of access to newer cards or masochism. (Perhaps nostalgia or a silly streak of fun.)

I go back to the older vamps and want to make decks with them, but am continually caught asking myself, "why?". Apart from the select few tried and tested deck concepts from those groups, the power creep of newer vamps VS old is huge. With that said, I don't think it's outlandish to think that "ANY" vamps would destroy balance. Balance is more readily destroyed with library cards that let disastrous combinations occur.

The only reason I mentioned Angelo was because the Blood Brothers only have a few vamps. Sure, they're supposed to have so few vamps, but variety is the spice of life and when it comes to an anomaly like Angelo, being able to use Sanguinius with any circle, plus being a promo, I think he deserves special treatment over other vamps we can manufacture a reason for being "ANY".


Actually, I wouldn't be against Saulot as "ANY". Group 2 SAL! are exceptionally weak in regards to the vamps they have access and I think that a Saulot strat should be felt across all groups of vampires.

Heretical thoughts, I know.
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