Recruitment Exercise - Good for the Black Hand?

D-dennis wrote:

I would be very disappointed if the vtes-players of the world woudl only use cards in the way the designer intended. Sure, the extremities will probably be handled by the designer(s), but there is a whole field in between that is left open to exploration. The card is published, so now it's up to us to make something of it. For RE, the first part of that exploration is already done (some might call it 'ehrmagehrd, ernerther swerm blerd dèck').

you won't be the only one!

Anyway we went through 4 rounds of playtesting on Recruitment Exercise [the first round begin a bust as all the inquisitor cards needed a magnifying glass to read] and this added contributions to the original design and intent. The card wasn't designed in isolation of the community it was designed with the community Jeff. Perhaps a lesson there.

This doesn't mean the card is perfect but it's the best we can do pre-throwing the card out for everyone to use.
Feedback will continue once cards are live and I daresay if a card slips through that is fundamentally flawed Pascal will work with the design team to change or remove cards as necessary.

Jeff wrote:

brandonsantacruz wrote:

This conversation is quite silly. Can we talk about something more productive?

Brandon, I fully agree. I wish the conversation would turn back toward the card and not be sidetracked by meta discussions.

However, I face a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Some people will always interpret my comments as polarizing. Others scream out that I need to engage them in a conversation, even as they insult me. Do I ignore them and then get called out for not arguing with them? Or do I respond as tactfully as possible and then deal with additional vehement rhetoric, or worse?

Just because others turn up the heat, doesn't mean they will make me leave the kitchen.

Saying that this card is broken is an incendiary comment, especially because of your public break with the design team. I think that it is too soon to say whether this card does all that much to VTES games across the world. Having some big argument about it (which is not entirely your doing) isn't proving anything. The proof is in the pudding. Let's let this thing play out. If you really want to bolster your case, then start making decks that exploit the card to the fullest. Post how games went with those decks. Play them at tournaments, like at Andy's house December 28th (shameless plug).

Jeff wrote:

By my reading of "really quite awesome", your comments were fairly snarky and sarcastic.

By my reading of my response, it was neutral, factual, and portrayed that our playtesting did not find that combination to be a problem.

Then your much-vaunted process is wrong.

Just like it's wrong with the seat switchers.

Just like it's wrong with, as has been pointed out, creating cards that don't actually work.

Jeff wrote:

If you are interpreting some sort of personal affront to yourself from my comments, then that's kind of on you. I will note that you haven't commented on that thread again, so why would I have ever assumed that there was a communication problem needing clarification?

There wasn't a communication problem. You've communicated, apparently accurately, that you think flopping out 4 Pander bleeding for 2 at +1 stealth on turn one is a positive move for the game. Why the game needs to be dragged back into a world where weenies can make life very, very unpleasant for their initial prey irrespective of whether they get the GW or not when incrementally work has been done to stop weenie decks causing that sort of devestation, I have no idea.

But since you're claiming the PCK think this is a positive move, it demonstrates that your design process is wrong.

Jeff wrote:

See also: the Dunning Kruger effect.

Yeah, the person that trots this one out first always makes the other side look bad. Good on you for using that tactic.

Look, I can't help if you're shouting from the rooftops about how much more awesome the PCK is, when it's doing fundamentally awful things - from reintroducing seat switchers through to sending cease-and-desist letters.

johannes wrote:

Jeff wrote:

Perhaps the return of weenie Auspex is imminent as it frequently happens during these inflection points when new sets enter the tournament scene.

Weenie auspex is pretty alive and kicking. There was a weenie auspex (+ Goratrix) in the EC final, in case you missed it.

While not strictly weenie Auspex, there are more than a few decks that are weenie-to-midcap Auspex, with a lot of reaction cards in them. Some straddle between something like weenie Auspex and the !Ven stick-men grinder (which often, but not always, strays into higher capacities), or similar sorts of decks from other clans.

There's a pretty awesome looking one from the Australian Open 2013, Saulot plus a raft of Auspex helpers.

For strictly weenie, mono-Auspex, having tried it in the distant past, there's no doubting it can have strong table control. But it was just a little dull for my tastes.

Jeff wrote:

Lech wrote:

The Deck of Martin was already build, and known to be good, before the new set release. Changing Effective Manegement and Clotho's Gifts for new card was no brainer. It was expected.

Yes, Martin is a very good player and deck-builder. As he said, his deck was "under the radar of the tournament scene", but still doing very well. His skills (and Guilhem's) have now shown the general V:tES community the way to use Recruitment Exercise to its best extent.

The immediate anecdotal evidence we have says (to me) much more than Recruitment Exercise was just the small bump needed. It's a "no brainer" that can help any Black Hand deck, especially the swarm bleed type which is it created by virtue of card text, win big with some skillful play. Perhaps the return of weenie Auspex is imminent as it frequently happens during these inflection points when new sets enter the tournament scene.

Just to clarify, i don't think it's no-brainer in any clan-related bh deck. It's no-brainer in bh, bh, bh, bh, but not in Assamite bh, not in Lasombra bh, not in Elimeleh wall, not in !gangrel bh. It do fit where you want to have 5+ minions, but don't if you plan to use 3-4.

Yes, it's nice enabler for Martin's deck, a bump which made it more efficient and reliable.

Weenie is as good as ever.