file Balancing Ashur Tablets

10 Jul 2014 06:24 #63608 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Iwas about to request data to bqack up Orpheus' claim ("a card that is present in maybe 50% of the winning decks right now") but Ankha managed to beat me to it by supllying the said data.

Don't see the problem (unless we're talking about the scarcity of the Ashur Tablets among the playerbase) since, like cordovader said, playing Trochomancy trows a nice wrench in the Ashur machine.


All being said and done, I also am somewhat peeved by the fact that with Ashurs previously rare recursion has become a free for all. Tough!

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10 Jul 2014 08:03 #63609 by Orpheus
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets
Ok, so I was off on the numbers (not so much in Marseille numbers):laugh: , at least in the 100 last ones.

Nearly 1 in 5 is still a LOT !! Means on average nearly one in every final. And I'm under the impression it's played much more in France than in other places.

The card is anything but fine. If it allows some cards / strategies to be played, it also reinforces other much too powerful ones.

Discarding a Dragonbound in the early game and getting it back with Ashur Tablets seems ok to me.


First, the choice in your example is game-changing. Second, it's not even the worst possible case. Third, it's fine if you have access to recursion, which should be a rare mechanism reserved to some clans / disciplines with the restrictions it entails. And last, but not least, the game is based around difficult choices, the idea that you sometimes must hold on to some cards that might jam your hand riht away but be useful later (or in this case play a card that can hinder you too). There are exceptions to this but they should stay rare (and in my opinion, thematic).

Taking back a Pentex Subversion in hand isn't a problem, even for MMPA decks because they could use Anthelios anyway.


Citing an overpowered card has never made another overpowered card right.

Don't see the problem (unless we're talking about the scarcity of the Ashur Tablets among the playerbase) since, like cordovader said, playing Trochomancy trows a nice wrench in the Ashur machine.


How often do you see Trochomancy played ?! SO everyone should play Nec or at least Aus just to trump Ashur decks ? That's preposterous. Not to mention that, in order to work, the guy will have at least succeeded once in playing his combo. Seeing as some decks play "only" 6-9 Ashur, you wouldn't really jam his way to victory.

Yes, the scarcity of Ashur is also an issue. But if it wasn't that rare even more players would play it. No way is that good for the game.

All being said and done, I also am somewhat peeved by the fact that with Ashurs previously rare recursion has become a free for all. Tough!


Tough ? The most powerful mechanism of the game (of most CCGs actually) becomes available to all types of decks, yes, that's bad !! The HoS sure need some help to win more games. Anson, Nana Buruku and so may others don't !!

As always I'm not advocating a change based on what I have or not, play or not. For me this card, as is, is a really bad card for the game.

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10 Jul 2014 11:45 #63611 by jamesatzephyr

When the only / best way to counter a card / strategy is to adopt the same one, that card / strategy is bad for the game. In any game. Always has been, always will be.


Erm, sort of.

It is definitely the case that if a strategy is incredibly strong and the only way to survive is either to play it yourself or to play explicitly to counter it, something is probably amiss. For example, 1996 era turbo-Tomb+Soul Gem+RTI combos of hideousness basically required you to either play that (hoping to get it off faster) or to explicitly play to counter it. And the problem with playing to counter it was that that was moderately hard because bounce passed the problem to someone else, rather than actually neutering it (in the way that the errata was clearly intended to).

If a particular strategy is relatively insular in terms of its moving parts, it may also be the case that you need to either play that strategy or deliberately select cards to interact with it. For example, my long-standing grumble about Events is that there's too little tech to interact with them, like there might be if they were - say - a special type of master card, or had (D) actions on them to burn them, or there were more cards with levels that touch events. I like interactivity, I like decks being able to bump up against each other in ways that cause interesting table dynamics, and in ways that let people trade favours. My prince in my not-a-vote deck will lend you his incidental votes. My vampire will rescue my cross-table buddy's vampire. That sort of thing is cool when you don't need special tech.

However, needing special tech is only a particular problem if you need to directly interact with that tech to do well, though. Do you need to be playing Ashur or anti-Ashur to win? Apparently 84% of tournament winning decks believe not.

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10 Jul 2014 15:28 #63619 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Nearly 1 in 5 is still a LOT !!

Actually 16% is almost exactly one in six, not five...

How often do you see Trochomancy played ?!

Saw some played in last Sunday's tournament.

Use if quite often myself too.

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10 Jul 2014 15:56 #63620 by ReverendRevolver

Solution five: Make it so it's only possible to shuffle back MINION cards.



Lets be clear here:

This fixes the problems Ashurs causes. Liquidation and MMPA shit os why they are broken, fluid decks or streamlined decks arent as bad.

This is an easy, one word fix.

Lilliths Blessing isnt even this easy to fix.

Scarcety is a huge problem, and hopefully Steve Weick helps with that, but its not something to bam cards for, or monestary and cog go too....
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10 Jul 2014 21:03 - 11 Jul 2014 13:52 #63626 by Orpheus
Replied by Orpheus on topic Re: Balancing Ashur Tablets

Nearly 1 in 5 is still a LOT !!

Actually 16% is almost exactly one in six, not five...


Point still stands.

How often do you see Trochomancy played ?!

Saw some played in last Sunday's tournament.

Use if quite often myself too.


Why did you play it ? In which type of deck ?
Last edit: 11 Jul 2014 13:52 by Orpheus.

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