file About Anthelios and Seeds...

21 Jan 2016 23:40 #75128 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic About Anthelios and Seeds...

A blanket rule that players cannot take more than two MPAs per turn would not require changing any card text, only the rulebook.


True, that would still make liquidation + anthelios work to find the masters I want faster. I can pick up any ashurs later on, no immediate rush and once the masters I want are in the ashheap, 2 MPA's per turn is plenty (more would be better, but I can work with just 2).

All for it ^^

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength

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22 Jan 2016 04:59 #75161 by ReverendRevolver

A blanket rule that players cannot take more than two MPAs per turn would not require changing any card text, only the rulebook.

Half agree. Trifles get less good then. If we say "from non trifle sources" or make a trifle phase before master, or change rules to "only one source of an additional MPA can be used each turn. Trifles do not count against this. Like additional strike sources, and trifles are Quickness.....

Alek, I cried that seeds was banned. A lot. Or maybe that was because Bowie died. Just kidding. There was something in my eye..... ;)

I liked seeds. I like prison of the mind and mind of a child too. I liked seeds more, even though I had it played on me the only time I've seen it played, but I get it would be hard-ish for rules. Much harder for non-native English speakers, I suppose.

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22 Jan 2016 07:27 #75166 by PetriWessman

We saw one in a tournament a few months ago. Hopefully, there was me (getting wrong or having doubts), Stone our former rulemonger and someone else to put our mind in common, and finally look on the internet what it did in that particuliar case (it was played on Enkidu).
We just lost 10 minutes.


...and this, people, is a textbook example of why Seeds was banned.

I've had to answer a few Seeds-related questions as a tournament judge. It's always been a pain, since it's never been 100% clear what gets removed and what doesn't (what's a penalty which Seeds doesn't remove, what's a special ability which Seeds does remove). It causes arguments, it wastes time.

In addition, it's very rare to actually see Seeds in a tournament, so the actual effect on the (tournament) game scene here will be close to nil. Nothing is preventing people from still including Seeds in casual decks.

While I understand the angst if a favorite card is banned.... still. Mountain. Molehill.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

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22 Jan 2016 09:02 #75173 by jamesatzephyr

We saw one in a tournament a few months ago. Hopefully, there was me (getting wrong or having doubts), Stone our former rulemonger and someone else to put our mind in common, and finally look on the internet what it did in that particuliar case (it was played on Enkidu).
We just lost 10 minutes.


How? Everything relevant to Enkidu is in vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z

Enkidu's text from Secret Library:
Sabbat. Red List: Enkidu can enter combat with any minion as a (D) action. If Enkidu successfully performs an action to employ a retainer, he untaps at the end of the turn. He cannot have or use equipment. +2 strength.

The ruling from vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z
Seeds of Corruption:

"Special ability" includes all text except terms (i.e., it doesn't include Clan, Sect, Title, Unique (or not), Blood Cursed, Circle, Flight, Infernal, Scarce, Slave, Sterile, Vulnerability, Anarch, Black Hand, Seraph, Red List). (note that this only restricts things that are possible only by special ability - things that a special ability makes impossible are still impossible.) [LSJ 19970801] [LSJ 20011211] [LSJ 20040120] [RTR 20040501]
The vampire burns blood for Seeds of Corruption when the action is attempted. [LSJ 19971013]

So let's break Enkidu down, piece by piece.
  • "Sabbat." Sect. Still applies, because the ruling says it doesn't include "sect"
  • "Red List". Ditto, the ruling says it doesn't include "Red List", by name.
  • "Enkidu can enter combat with any minion as a (D) action." Clearly a special ability, and not saved by anything else in the ruling. It's also not a special prohibition (the "...are still impossible" bit of the ruling). Result: No longer usable with Seeds on him.
  • "If Enkidu successfully performs an action to employ a retainer, he untaps at the end of the turn." Similarly, a special ability, that allows him to untap. Not a special restriction. No longer usable with Seeds on him.
  • "He cannot have or use equipment." This falls under the "things that a special ability makes impossible are still impossible" part of the ruling. Still functions with Seeds in play.
  • "+2 strength." Special ability, not a defined term from the ruling. (Nor is, say, permanent +1 stealth, +1 intercept etc.) So it doesn't apply while Seeds is on him.

There are genuinely mind-bending moments with Seeds of Corruption - Tariq the Silent is one of them - but Enkidu surely isn't one of them if you take each part of his ability in turn, and apply the ruling to it.

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22 Jan 2016 12:52 - 22 Jan 2016 12:54 #75178 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic About Anthelios and Seeds...
Yes, after ten minutes trying to figure out (and remembering either correctly or not) what it did, we ended up reading the ruling to be sure.

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 22 Jan 2016 12:54 by Ankha.

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