Trap rewording

Ankha wrote:

At BCP, we are considering changing the text of Trap to:

Only usable before range is determined during the first round of combat.
Put this card in play with 3 counters. Each time a card is played this combat, add counters to this card until it has 3 counters. During the press step of each round this combat, this Trap automatically burns 1 counter from itself to provide 1 press to continue combat (either combatant can press to end combat). Burn this card at the end of combat.

The behavior is the same except that the card stays in play for the duration of the combat (not a big difference).

Do you find it clearer this way? If not why?

Pretty ingenious wording. B) I am definitely in favor of using counters to count the number of rounds the trap works. We should try to use counters whenever there is some game state that needs to be tracked for a longer period of time. I would be willing to accept this wording as it is.

I am also in favor of the "count down" approach, as it is intuitive and simpler in the probably the most common situation: nobody plays combat cards after the first round. Once you are down to zero, just put trap to ash heap and move on with your life.

Ankha wrote:

When the Trap has provided its last press, it can "reactivate" later on. For instance, you press once using a Mob Connection, then in the following round play a combat card. It is corner-case, but burning the card would require more text anyway, so it's probably better to keep it the way it works right now

I agree. The possibility of resetting the trap yourself later on is definitely important. I have been playing with combat decks that utilize trap for a while now (Matasuntha among other things), and I often wait for the trap to work couple rounds, then reset the trap myself with taste of vitae. Using counters to count the number of presses would definitely be useful, as my opponents often have resigned to their fate and just want to shortcut to the end, while I want to maximize the effectiveness of taste and still following the actual game rules (play taste as late as possible but still get maximum amount of blood possible).

Attempting to shortcut to the end can sometimes lead to confusing situations where we are unsure how many rounds have we done or how many does it actually require for the opponent to get torporized. Any help tracking this situation is appreciated (I also play drawing out the beast which further confuses the combat math, as the extra 1 damage happens in press step. Confuses in the sense that I feel obligated to mention it aloud).

The main problem with this card is that it is difficult to know how many presses the Trap provide. That is why I prefer to start with 3 counters, each of them representing a press. Doing it the other way may offer a slightly shorter text, but I feel we lose the intent.

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Please continue to provide feedback, nothing is settled yet.

I think its ok for the text to be slightly longer, as long as it cannot be misunderstood (at least easily). This is a really good attempt at rewording one of the more confusing cards in VTES.

"Each time a card is played this combat, add counters to this card until it has 3 counters."

Uh, so this changes it a bit as Trap doesn't reset but will provide just one press instead. No good.

Some of the "add counters and when you have three" methods would work better.

After all we are trying to make a way to count the remaining turns Trap is in effect, not change the card, right?

I've mostly just counted the number of rounds that have gone without cards being played (with sticking my fingers up). Has worked great.

I read it as "Whenever you play a card add one counter per card played (until it has 3 counters)".

Since there has been some confusion about the wording already I think the possible rewrite needs as much clarity as possible as to achieve what is sought with it. And certainly not get even more confusing

Like said earlier, I think some of the approaches from other direction ("add counters and when you have three") seem to be clearer.

Is there a particular reason you want to counters to be removed and the effect end when the card is empty? Other cards use the same template etc?

Lönkka wrote:

I read it as "Whenever you play a card add one counter per card played (until it has 3 counters)".

Since there has been some confusion about the wording already I think the possible rewrite needs as much clarity as possible as to achieve what is sought with it. And certainly not get even more confusing

Since every counter represents a press, yes, it does reset. The wording does made it work identically as before. Its just simpler to track with every counter being a press. (And this being more intuitive compared to counting upwards with the counters).

EDIT:
Maybe a wording
"When a card is played this combat, add counters to this card until it has 3 counters"
might be better, to avoid the wording 'each time' which people might mistake the way Lönkka did above, to think that you only add one counter per card played.