Of Decks and Tier Lists

LivesByProxy wrote:

Seems like a cool discussion, shame no one is participating.

Tier 0: Harbingers Legionnaire, AAA, Girls?

Tier 1: Ventrue Lawfirm, !Ventrue Grinder, Kindred Spirits S&B, Tzimisce Smiling Jack Wall, Nocturn Swarm?

Tier 2: Ahrimanes, Salubri/!Salubri Combat, Daughters Choir, Weenie Dominate, Weenie Animalism?

Tier 3: Weenie Politics? Weenie Presence?

Tier 4: !Nosferatu, !Gangrel?

Tier 5: Samedi Politics

Alas, I don't have that much experience, and my playgroup is small and our meetings scarce, and most of us seem to play the underdog clans.

You're off on several, as tiers 2 and 3 contain questionable things, and while nocturne swarm is a thing, it's like 3 different decks that can succeed, and I've seen less good ones attempted.

But yes, basically

Tier 0/S:
Decks that are either overpowered enough to imbalance a table and win in a vacuum (girls) OR decks that are so disruptive that the table must squash them together or they win (table poison imbued) OR decks that are relatively new but have the potential to fall in here as well as another tier (Legionnaires)

Tier 1/A:
Win regularly enough with relative consistency against typical opponents that they can be considered viable across the board OR decks that meet these criteria but struggle against something that seldom impedes it's over likelihood of showing up on top.(malk '94, war ghouls, grinders)
Tier 2/B:
Decks that fit in A in occasion, but due to mere environments cannot consistently be relied upon not to encounter situations where its beaten. OR, finds its odds largely depend on the tables response to it, such as combos, OR by design will be less reliable win a 2r+f tournament(most combat, some toolboxes and walks) also includes staples. (Law firm, Legacy of pander, Turbo nergal, much combat). Hey here; a really good player with this tier deck is scarier than anyone with the above tiers, as the existing perception of the deck allows them to work the table better. I'm not that good of a player.
Tier 3/C:
More niche decks that still are likely to win, but less reliably than other decks. These often include excessively defensive combos, the best of which are often tier B, unless vulnerable to something super common.
Tier 4/D:
Decks that have the means to win but lack high probability. They are cohesive and seldom just a gag, but show obvious flaws like evident while being made (Jay Kristoff has won with G2 non slave gargoyles, those probably go here)
Tier 5/E:
Joke and gimmick decks that can theoretically win, but rely primarily on fun or amusement , suck as true faith in cock robin for "Holy Cock" or Fetox the rock lord ckan impersonating to play Concert Tour.
Tier6/F:
Junk, typically with suboptimal card choices when obviously superior options exist, like Ankou instead of 5caps in kindred spirit sharks. Or using gift of experience over epiphany/legacy, etc.

So, its largely circumstantial, but I'd say we can open it up, but I do insist on links to decklists for all archetypes, or full lists in spoiler boxes for tiers 2+.

good luk with that
At Berlin day 1 there was more than 100 decks represented and each of them had the potential for being Tier 3 at least,

the french bibliodeque presents about 100 decks that are at least for 90% of them tier 2 at worst

v:tes is just like this

I think the only two things you can count are the tier 0: i.e everybody must smash them or they win (except specific pred/prey). Weenie DBR, Legacy of Pander, Tupdog, Imbued, reversal might be there but it's questionable

Tier 1: probably 10/20 decks or so that win consistently. You can try to list them, it's already as complicated as it gets

TapeTaChatte wrote:

good luk with that
At Berlin day 1 there was more than 100 decks represented and each of them had the potential for being Tier 3 at least,

the french bibliodeque presents about 100 decks that are at least for 90% of them tier 2 at worst

v:tes is just like this

I think the only two things you can count are the tier 0: i.e everybody must smash them or they win (except specific pred/prey). Weenie DBR, Legacy of Pander, Tupdog, Imbued, reversal might be there but it's questionable

Tier 1: probably 10/20 decks or so that win consistently. You can try to list them, it's already as complicated as it gets

Idk about you but if I see 100 decks it's prolly more like 10 decks 90 times and a few kind of different ones. It's not like I see decks all the time and think what a new idea, and almost never in competitive play.

@mewcat:
Precisely: variants on things.

Mewcat wrote:

Idk about you but if I see 100 decks it's prolly more like 10 decks 90 times and a few kind of different ones. It's not like I see decks all the time and think what a new idea, and almost never in competitive play.

I agree. People exaggerate how many archetypes there actually is. I dont consider a deck with its crypt swapped but library the same a different deck, let alone a different archetype. I can play ventrue lawfirm with g3-4 crypt or as g4-5 crypt. Its still basically the same deck.

note: One reason Ive wanted to get pentex banned was to "unlock" star vampire decks that can be genuinely original and different since they are based on the vampires text box, yet most are brought down by a single pentex.

note: One reason Ive wanted to get pentex banned was to "unlock" star vampire decks that can be genuinely original and different since they are based on the vampires text box, yet most are brought down by a single pentex.

It wouldn't make those vampires any better though. They would still be overshadowed by actually good (or more consistent) big caps or stars. Pentex is not what is forcing those vampires to lag behind. It's the rest of the card pool and those vampires and decks that are simply better than them.

If you want to play original vampires and deck ideas, do so. Just, don't blame Pentex if they face problems. Pentex has little to do with those problems. If anything, it should be an aid against decks that would otherwise trump those more original ones with better consistency.