TWD & Report - Camarilla Conclave 2011, Palma de Mallorca (Spain), 14. Aug. 2011

Lech wrote:

Problem lies in no counter to combat strategies based on one or two cards (ie, decks that play one/two cards in double digits), they tried to do it with botched move, but they failed.

I'd disagree slightly, and specify that there are no one-card responses to long-range combat. Certainly, Target Vitals and/or Weighted Walking Stick are reasonable responses to short-range combat.

KevinM wrote:

Lech wrote:

Problem lies in no counter to combat strategies based on one or two cards (ie, decks that play one/two cards in double digits), they tried to do it with botched move, but they failed.

I'd disagree slightly, and specify that there are no one-card responses to long-range combat. Certainly, Target Vitals and/or Weighted Walking Stick are reasonable responses to short-range combat.

Thrown Sever Lids are reasonable response to long range combat, but aids+crows are not strictly long range combat, it's combat with ability to choose range.

Breath of the Dragon is reasonable too.

KevinM wrote:

There are twelve freaking cards in this deck. Twelve. Animalism is indeed the strongest non-Dominate discipline now. It eclipsed Presence when Deep Song hit, and Nana Buruku cemented its awesomeness. Deep Song, Crows, and Bats are almost enough to win a tournament, just those three cards. It’s ridiculous. Since we aren't getting any new cards anymore, I wonder what the long-term solution to this problem is going to be? What are the anti-Deep Song, anti-Crows, anti-Animalism strategies? I suppose S:CE wrecks it, but Presence-based decks were hardly played at all at the 2011NAC, so I'm unsure that they are going to make a comeback.

Been thinking about this problem for a while. I don't see combat ends wrecking anything, as long as the deck survives, it will run someone out of combat ends with Deep Song rush. Killing the deck very fast works, though that works on most things, I think.

Combat answers exist, ranged agg is a possible favorable trade, Theft is annoying. Defensively, Flesh of Marble and Zip Gun is a trade. The issue is that combat answers are frequently just that - answers. They aren't threats themselves. Not going to be running around Conflagrationing people or whatever. To actually win combat often requires playing combat that takes up more space or doesn't have an outlet for being cleared like Deep Song, so while you can trump Crows/Bats, you lose to other decks that don't want to fight. Vicissitude is reasonably efficient. 'schreck is okay, though a lot of Animalism decks are weenieish.

Lot of Obediences would be an answer, but they probably don't do a lot against stealth vote unless you can actually block. Speaking of stealth vote, as a metagame play, I think it's a good one as would be Kindred Spirits.

What really hurts is trying to play a more toolboxy deck when a focused deck like this is so efficient in pool damage and minion removal.

Playing the same combat yourself is a move we have already seen with Girls, but it's a boring response.

Of course, there's always something that's going to be better. Besides trying to come up with tech, there's just ganging up on the scariest deck on the table.

KevinM wrote:

There are twelve freaking cards in this deck. Twelve. Animalism is indeed the strongest non-Dominate discipline now. It eclipsed Presence when Deep Song hit, and Nana Buruku cemented its awesomeness. Deep Song, Crows, and Bats are almost enough to win a tournament, just those three cards. It’s ridiculous. Since we aren't getting any new cards anymore, I wonder what the long-term solution to this problem is going to be? What are the anti-Deep Song, anti-Crows, anti-Animalism strategies? I suppose S:CE wrecks it, but Presence-based decks were hardly played at all at the 2011NAC, so I'm unsure that they are going to make a comeback.

You are overreacting. weenies are nothing new. What do you find so scary in this particular deck? It has a lot of glaring weaknesses. It is a midcap deck with no defense except backrush, no untap and no stealth on its rushes. An aggressive predator has all its chances to oust it and another combat deck will outfight it.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

12 different cards in the library. I wonder if that's a record of some sort in the current format.

This one that I grabbed from extrala's blog only has 11, though it didn't actually win the tournament he mentioned it being played in.

www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=4979

Non-existant user wrote:

You are overreacting. weenies are nothing new. What do you find so scary in this particular deck? It has a lot of glaring weaknesses. It is a midcap deck with no defense except backrush, no untap and no stealth on its rushes. An aggressive predator has all its chances to oust it and another combat deck will outfight it.

It consistently starts rushing from turn 2-3 onwards, bloats like crazy with Ashurs, Villeins and Lilith's Blessing and overcomes every viable non-weenie combat defense/hitback with minion and card advantage. Other combat decks might win the first 3 combats of a given turn at best but even that's not enough. The bats, birds and weenies will keep coming long after opponents have spent their combat hands.

Of course, Imbued with Liquidations and events, Vignes or focused table hate will blow Nana out of the water.