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Ashur,
You're apparently trying to achieve contradictory goals.

You are wanting to improve combat decks (pure combat, not merely a bruise module of a bleed or vote deck) by improving the way it stops other people playing their game (preventing them from using master cards)

BUT

You don't want to improve the way it stops other people playing their game (by destroying their minions).

So you're looking to stop people playing their game, but not stopping people playing their game. (Trading No Minions for No MPAs). So either you have a problem with the prevalence of "Many MPA Decks" or you have a problem with people who play combat decks to obliterate every minion of their predator constantly.


You do want these decks to be able to kill minions.

BUT

You don't want these decks to kill their predator's minions (aka Path of the Salmon).

So then there either needs to be a way to slow down your predator, or oust your prey AND smash their minions.

Again, this is conflicting since you, and Izaak, have said that you don't want to encourage a combat deck to headlong smash every minion of their prey.


So to assist combat decks go forward and not back-rush constantly, means that we need to assist combat go forward and take out their prey. This results in you needing to
- do pool damage or
- gain pool damage potential from killing minions or
- gain defence for killing minions

and you've said that you're against all of these options.

I fail to see the contradiction. I just see you not properly attending most points that are being made and just moving forward your own single-minded agenda that torping minions should for some reason be rewarded with pool damage resembling the pool damage caused by modified bleeds on stealth. Without having to worry about Deflections.

So to assist combat decks go forward and not back-rush constantly, means that we need to assist combat go forward and take out their prey. This results in you needing to
- do pool damage or
- gain pool damage potential from killing minions or
- gain defence for killing minions

I've actually only stated I'm against option #1 because that would make everything but killing vampires redunant and we're just going to end up with a 5-player variant of battle arena.

I've also actually provided two reasonable examples of option #3

I still don't want to see any card that would enable someone that mindlessly smashes minions on the table to win. The ability to ruin other people's games comes at the cost of not winning yourself. Most good players caught up on that and adapted into decks that can't and won't reliably torp everything that can take an action but instead build decks that leave their prey with a game to play and have some actual means to gain a VP.

Of course there will always be some moron who thinks his deck with Beast and 65 red cards will get a gamewin. Likewise there are also always these mentally handicapped people that think Carna with 31 wakes and a Sniper Rifle makes for a good deck.

I have been affected more times in a tournament by some numb-nuts who brings Weenie Dementation 60-card decks with two cards (Kindred Spirits and Confusion) or S&B (of it s various kinds) or straight Dominate than I ever have by something combat-heavy. I've been ousted more times cross-table by those decks and more than once sat down to a game and not been able to even sit at the table and negotiate because by the time I get one minion out, I'm basically ousted.

THAT is boring. I come to tournaments to play VTES, I don't come to them to sit on the sidelines and stare at the walls while another by-the-numbers deck does the rounds.

At the moment, playing almost anything other than Dominate seems redundant. Explain why we all shouldn't be playing Dominate Stealth-Bleed or Pre Power-vote?

I honestly appreciate a well-played combat deck, and my playgroup is starting to develop a few solid, ousting, selective, go-forward based combat decks that do use something like 50% red cards (not merely in the defensive "Majesty + Charismatic Aura" style).


I honestly dislike the prevalence of Dominate in tournaments and would like there to be ways other than Vote or Spying Mission to ensure that you aren't bleeding out the wrong player. So having ways to oust a Deflection deck that doesn't require something like Perfect Clarity seems like an excellent idea. I want there to be decks that use combat and don't immediately graft on Dominate to defend. I want to force other decks to consider defending against combat rather than assuming it won't happen "because I have +1million stealth".

Dragonbound, while not a bad card, is really only good for Permanents-based combat. Plus it does come with a fairly hefty penalty.

Frontal Assault, again while not bad, is too likely to blow up in my face for it to be used much.

Fame + Tensions is the old chestnut. Most combat decks start with 2+ Tensions and 3+ Fames as their backbone and then build the Combat and Actions to facilitate those two cards.


The options for defence you gave were "Put this in play to cancel a Master Card". I don't see how that is a "defence" module. That appears to be a "stopping someone else's game" module. A defence module would encourage:

- reduced bleeds
- increased action costs that target your pool/minions/stuff
- reduced stealth/increased intercept

Well, this thread certainly got off topic!

Well i might as well give my two cents on combat decks.

When I first started playing this game, it was explained to me that there are three ways to remove your prey from the game: bleed, vote or turn their vampires into pulp.

Bleeding is an effective way to remove pool. There are some cards that get you a little bit of pool while doing so. Some bleed cards have additional effects such as stealing allies, or gaining pool.

Voting usually requires higher capacity vampires, or more library cards to support smaller capacity voting. Voting isn't always as efficient as bleeding, but it has the added benefit of a wide variety of effects aside from direct pool damage (including lots of ways to gain pool.)

Then there is combat. In theory, dunking your prey's vampires forces them to spend more pool to bring out more vampires. The problem with this is twofold: first of all, it usually takes too many cards to remove a vampire. Second of all, when you do dunk a vampire it creates an imbalance on the table, since that player has less minions to move forward.

I'd get into wall/intercept decks, but that's another story

So the real question is: does this need to change? and if so, what will make it a more desirable balance between deck types?

Combat decks are fun to play, even if they don't win all the time. Players want combat decks to be tournament competitive. I'd say those are good enough reason to explore some options.

Since Fame and Tension in the Ranks have proved to be good for creating winning combat decks, some more cards that do direct pool damage might be in line. Making transient cards that do pool damage from successful combats might work. They take up card space, which is valuable to combat decks, and they don't stay in play likek Fame or Tension in the ranks.

"Send a Message"

Enter combat with a vampire controlled by your prey. If the target vampire is in torpor at the end of this action, move the vampire to the ready region and your prey burns 2 pool.

"Your Life for Blood"

Only usable when the opposing vampire goes to torpor. Not playable by a vampire going to torpor. Move the opposing vampire to the ready region and put this card on them. This vampire gets -1 bleed. Burn this card if this vampire goes to torpor.

OR

"Your Life for Blood"

Only usable when the opposing vampire goes to torpor. Not playable by a vampire going to torpor. Move the opposing vampire to the ready region and put this card on them. This vampire cannot redirect bleeds to you. Burn this card if this vampire goes to torpor.

Anyway, there are a number of ways you can slice it. But the idea is to make combat more competitive, without ruining table balance.

But on the other end, I would also argue that combat is as it should be... it's a means not an end. You want to win? play cards that remove pool from your prey. You are gonna get into combat, so you will either need combat defense or go the bruise-n-bleed route.

It's basically an arms race at that point. Someone plays a combat deck in your playgroup, forcing you to play more combat in your bleed or vote decks, but the combat deck doesn't win anymore so he waters his combat down with bleed and votes.

So the other answer to fix a combat deck is to put more bleed or votes in the deck. So maybe we should include cards that help them do that?

"Violent Demonstration"

Do not replace this card until the end of the action.
Bleed at +1 Bleed. If successful, you may replace this card with a combat card from your ash heap.

"Violent Repercussions"

Usable by a tapped vampire. Do not replace until the end of the action.
Only usable when you are successfully bled. Put this card on the bleeding minion. The reacting vampire may enter combat with this vampire as a action. Burn this card at the end of your minion phase. You may replace this card with a combat card in your ash heap.

Now what these cards do is help you recover combat cards you've played, so you can make your combats more efficient, and since they allow you to enter combat, they take the place of rush actions, which you can use the card space in your deck for bleeds or defense. (or you could put more combat cards in your deck and have enough cards to dunk a whole 5 player table

combat decks actually have one of the best in vtes gain pool mechanic. Villein + taste of vitae let's them create big amounts of pool while killing minions.
liqudation + ashur tablets can be put in any deck and gives mass pool gain + cards recursion. Additionally is even better when you have additionall MPA. And quess what? Nana Buruku and Anson are great combat vampires and both gives additional MPA's.
Too many cards to kill a minion? Try permanents: murder of crows, preternatural strenght, herois might, vampires with build in enter combat and/or +strenght.
Few facts from near past. The biggest and most important tournaments in current year were won by combat decks f.e FCQ in PAris (149 players), EC 2010 (Day2). Even famous "Girls will find" construction which won lot of tournaments is better in its combat version.
The truth is: tools for great combat decks are already there. Learn how to use them and STOP COMPLAINING! If you can't win with combat you can blame only yourself not a game.