[Submission] Sabbat crypt cards

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote:

Christoff
G6
Camarilla: When Christoff is influenced out first time, he burns 4 blood and have -1 stealth and -1 intercept. He gets press to continue when in combat with Tzimisce. +1 strenght.

The way that's phrased is a little weird, in that you've put the "-1 stealth and -1 intercept" in the "When Christoff is influenced out first time" sentence. Do you mean something like:

Camarilla. When Christoff is influenced out for the first time, he burns 4 blood. He gets an (optional?) press to continue when in combat with a Tzimisce. -1 stealth. -1 intercept. +1 strength.

Even with that, he feels more than a little over the top. 9 points of disciplines, and 9 points of pretty good disciplines at that, and relatively little trouble regaining blood with, say, Taste of Vitae.

The wording is bit weird as i was out of touch with good wording, so some of my drafts may feel odd.

It's -1 steath and -1 intercept for the first turn, not ever.

Sure, it's 9 points in disciplines (more like 2 + 2 + 2 + 0.75 [fourth and fifth are usually like that] + 0.75 + 0.5 [you are really not going to use all six]). Look at Don Cerro who have 7 disciplines (2 at superior). With the math provided it's like 2 + 2 + 1 + 0.75 + 0.75 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 7.5 , compared to 7.75 of Christoff's disciplines. Intercept/Stealth/burn 4 blood make up for +1 str, and Tzimisce special is worth about 0 points (gg with aggropoke or cc+afb). Usually 7 cap have around 8 points in disciplines. Compare him to, say, adv Theo, who have more cornercase, but more dangerous special.

TL;DR the only strong thing in Chris is inferior dominate. Which is sad, and funny at the same time

He should totally drop the dominate and get inferior serpentis instead , he should have it from the start, but i forget about little gem with eating heart of darkness

Lech wrote:

It's -1 steath and -1 intercept for the first turn, not ever.

Oh, in which case, I wouldn't count those restrictions as being worth anything at all.

The -1 stealth was kinda interesting when it was working against the Fortitude (making Freak Drive very hard to pull off). Less so when it's only one turn.

Lech wrote:

Sure, it's 9 points in disciplines (more like 2 + 2 + 2 + 0.75 [fourth and fifth are usually like that] + 0.75 + 0.5 [you are really not going to use all six]). Look at Don Cerro who have 7 disciplines (2 at superior).

It's probably the difference in superiors where I'd get most worried. POT/PRE (which Don doesn't have, he has POT/CEL) has Iron Glare and, now, Esprit de Corps. If nothing else, a free +2 bleed action modifier isn't at all shabby. And PRE gets you into some solid bleed actions too.

Lech wrote:

TL;DR the only strong thing in Chris is inferior dominate. Which is sad, and funny at the same time

I guess I value Fortitude more than you do.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote:

It's -1 steath and -1 intercept for the first turn, not ever.

Oh, in which case, I wouldn't count those restrictions as being worth anything at all.

The -1 stealth was kinda interesting when it was working against the Fortitude (making Freak Drive very hard to pull off). Less so when it's only one turn.

So it's again question of fortitude. Yes, it have huge synergy with Dmitra and rest of / crew.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Lech wrote:

Sure, it's 9 points in disciplines (more like 2 + 2 + 2 + 0.75 [fourth and fifth are usually like that] + 0.75 + 0.5 [you are really not going to use all six]). Look at Don Cerro who have 7 disciplines (2 at superior).

It's probably the difference in superiors where I'd get most worried. POT/PRE (which Don doesn't have, he has POT/CEL) has Iron Glare and, now, Esprit de Corps. If nothing else, a free +2 bleed action modifier isn't at all shabby. And PRE gets you into some solid bleed actions too.

True, but again, Theo Bell have it too. And with chris's -1 stealth special, Theo is more likely to use that Espirit.

Lech wrote:

TL;DR the only strong thing in Chris is inferior dominate. Which is sad, and funny at the same time

I guess I value Fortitude more than you do.[/quote]

True, on the other hand, without fortitude, his ability to safely get the blood back will be more limited (you know what i mean if you ever played tariq deck, who have very similar design to Christoff btw, except that he can't get the blood back).

Christoff
G6
Camarilla: When Christoff is influenced out first time, he burns 4 blood and get ancient counter (giving -1 stealth). Any vampire may burn the counter as action. He gets press to continue when in combat with Tzimisce. +1 strenght.

Oddly enough, it's thread about Sabbat vampires

Lech wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

It's probably the difference in superiors where I'd get most worried. POT/PRE (which Don doesn't have, he has POT/CEL) has Iron Glare and, now, Esprit de Corps. If nothing else, a free +2 bleed action modifier isn't at all shabby. And PRE gets you into some solid bleed actions too.

True, but again, Theo Bell have it too. And with chris's -1 stealth special, Theo is more likely to use that Espirit.

Given the popularity of certain Inner Circle members, and given the popularity of certain Gehenna events, Theo Bell Advanced's 'special' is somewhat more worrying - all you need is someone playing Arika or Stanislava or Lutz (all three fairly popular), and anyone on the table playing Anthelios. Arika and Lutz are likely to be found in decks with the ability to pass votes, too - it's not like the special asks for a one-dimensional stealth-bleeder to take you out in single combat. And Theo Bell Base has a built-in rush, which is often pretty decent, so Theo Bell Advanced is competing against Theo Bell Base, until or unless you merge them - which do you put more of in the deck, which do you really want to come out? And Theo Bell has a point less of disciplines. He's also Independent, which is very minor defect - Camarilla Brujah are fractionally more interesting. In particular, a EuroBrujah deck (which Theo fits in pretty well) can't toss an Archon on him to make him harder to block and immune to Blood Hunts, nor could it decide to throw Brujah Justicar at him, or something like that. You're probably figuring to put Archon on a different EuroBrujah who doesn't already have a built-in rush, but bad shuffles, things happening in play etc., you lose a tiny smidge of flexibility.

So I figure that Theo Advanced is the same capacity, one fewer discipline, and a 'special' that is somewhat out of his control which, to me, seems to be about as debilitating as Chris's special - I'd probably say a bit more worrying, but the two being the same is enough. 7 cap, so 8-ish notional design points. 8 points of disciplines, +1 strength, and a somewhat random special that seems to about balance that +1 strength.

And Chris doesn't have a -1 stealth special. He has a -1 stealth for one turn special. Now yes, if you created a card that put -1 stealth and -1 intercept on someone else's vampire for a turn, that could be pretty nasty as a way of screwing with them. But Chris's restrictions - unlike Theo Advanced's - are pretty much in his control. You know it's going to happen, and the whole deck was constructed knowing that, first turn, he's a little rubbish, and that you probably need to pop a Taste of Vitae before you can Villein him. But if you're planning on Villeining your vampires, you also already know that Donal O' Connor or Constanza Vinti is going to be entering combat several blood down anyway.

Lech wrote:

True, on the other hand, without fortitude, his ability to safely get the blood back will be more limited (you know what i mean if you ever played tariq deck, who have very similar design to Christoff btw, except that he can't get the blood back).

Tariq decks I have seen, the issue is usually the actually reduced capacity. And Quietus having historically been a bit unimpressive, compared to Torn Signpost, IG, Disarm. Quietus, you maybe get to Taste of Death (waste a blood), then see Majesty - perma-Rowan Ring is a somewhat sexy option for him that's been tried a lot, too, which at least saves you from the blood cost!

None of this means that Tariq is awful - Tariq Eats The World is pretty fearsome - but it seems trickier than a big fat vampire who's got a solid combat package and is a few blood down. Just like any other combatant in the deck who's been hit with Villein.

Looking at the pc game, he starts with in clans and gains pro and for early, but he could be solid if framed from Don.
CEL POT for pre pto ser. +1 strength, -1 stealth?