[Submission] Tonton Macoutes (Thanatosis bleed)

Tonton macoutes v1
Cost: 1 pool
Zombie retainer. Pool cost is +1 if the employing vampire is not a Samedi or Harbinger of Skulls, and +2 for a Giovanni. A vampire may use only one Tonton macoutes per round. [thn] 3 life. Tap this retainer and burn a life when this vampire is bleeding for +1 bleed [THN] [nec] As above, but starting life is 6, and you may burn 2 life for +2 bleed. [THN] [NEC] As above, but starting life is 8, and you may burn up 3 life for +3 bleed.

Quote: "Dominate? You just need a vial of this and the right person" - Baroque, Samedi.

Art notes: A Samedi forcing a broth down the throat of a mortal.

Source: Not WoD, based on the alleged zombie army .

How does this card address a compelling game need?: My Baron/Lisandro Giovanni Thanatosis/Dominate deck is the most successful Samedi deck I've played. I happened to read an article that mentioned the Tonton Macoutes the other day so the idea of a Thanatosis retainer that increase bleed was born. According the the myth, this is the traditional potion that turns people into zombies through the use of puffer fish toxins etc, slowly killing them. Therefore went with the bleed modifer costing life rather than using pathos. Because it's a potion, didn't restrict it to being Samedi/Harbinger only, just need varying levels of Thanatosis/Necromancy to get the most out a few Tonton Macoutes.

Not sure if the third level is necessary but would like to see very skilled necromancers (those with Necromancy and Thanatosis) eke more out of the concept.

My big problem with Dead Hookers is that, as an ally, they're very hard to give stealth to and are very expensive for, most likely, one or two bleeds of 2 (whereas normal Samedi can usually get +3 stealth on any action) - this is an attempt to balance things a little more. Would like to gauge opinions before I playtest.

Created by: Chris Nelson.

How about you just do the reverse and set the cost high, then drop it for the others.

Tonton
Retainer
3 pool
Zombie. A vampire may only have one Tonton. 3 life.
Reduce the cost of this retainer by 2 pool if the acting vampire is a Samedi or HoSk.
Once per bleed Tonton may burn X blood to get +X bleed.
[thn] X is 1.
[thn][nec] Tonton has 5 life and X is up to 2.
[THN][NEC] Tonton has 6 life and X is up to 3.

chrisn101 wrote:

Tonton macoutes v1
Cost: 1 pool
Zombie retainer. Pool cost is +1 if the employing vampire is not a Samedi or Harbinger of Skulls, and +2 for a Giovanni. A vampire may use only one Tonton macoutes per round. [thn] 3 life. Tap this retainer and burn a life when this vampire is bleeding for +1 bleed [THN] [nec] As above, but starting life is 6, and you may burn 2 life for +2 bleed. [THN] [NEC] As above, but starting life is 8, and you may burn up 3 life for +3 bleed.

It's not clear why every Samedi card has to involve Harbingers of Skulls. It's doubly unclear why a card that, at every level, requires Thanatosis requires verbiage about Giovanni and Harbingers, when there is only one vampire from each clan who can even play it (both nine caps).

What is "a round"? Combat has rounds. The rest of the game has turns. Do you mean a "round" as in once round the table? That doesn't work very well, because Reversal of Fortunes exists, as does Last Stand, both of which can disrupt that.

What do you mean by "use", in this context? Do you mean the bleed ability? Can I - with one vampire - activate one for a bleed which burns it, play Freak Drive, and then recruit another one? Does getting the retainer in a non-standard way count as "using" it e.g. Far Mastery? (That you couldn't activate two of them on one bleed is fine, but you want to know what 'using' means too.) Does just having two of them at the same time count as 'using' them?

Heidelberg Castle means that, in a single turn, you can get someone big to employ it, have them Freak Drive and bleed (at stealth - 3 of the 5 THAN/NEC vampires have Obf, one has OBF), then Heidelberg it over to a 2 cap for another +3 bleed right away. The Baron has OBF/dom, so weenies with Obf or Dom could well team up with him - he could Cloak or Veil some weenies, for example. Is being able to blow it all in one turn like that intentional?

chrisn101 wrote:

Not sure if the third level is necessary but would like to see very skilled necromancers (those with Necromancy and Thanatosis) eke more out of the concept.

My big problem with Dead Hookers is that, as an ally, they're very hard to give stealth to and are very expensive for, most likely, one or two bleeds of 2 (whereas normal Samedi can usually get +3 stealth on any action) - this is an attempt to balance things a little more. Would like to gauge opinions before I playtest.

Created by: Chris Nelson.

I don't get the Samedi/HoSk constant double-up. Make them HoSk or Samedi...

My big problem with this is bang for buck.
For 1 pool, at [thn] it is 3x Threats at [dom]. Yes, I can store it for a bit and it doesn't take card slots... but for 1 pool, I can get a Laptop and its +1 bleed for all of them.

For 1 pool, at [thn][nec] it's 3x Conditioning at [dom]. Not brilliant, but again... I don't know if it rocks harder than Laptop + Computer Hack.

For 1 pool, at [THN][NEC] it's 2-3x Conditiong at [DOM]. Good, but telegraphed.


I think I'd prefer it to look a lot more like Saatet-Ta.

Tonton
Ally
1 pool
Zombie. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
You may only control one Tonton at a time. You may burn X life and tap Tonton to add +X bleed to a bleed action taken by a Samedi you control. When a Samedi you control is acting, you may burn 2 life and tap Tonton to cause a minion attempting to block that Samedi to fail in the block attempt.
[thn] Tonton has 4 life and X is up to 2.
[THN] Tonton has 6 life and X is up to 3.

Firstly, I think something to give the Samedi some Bleed help is fine. However, I would keep things simple. So here's my take on your card:

Tonton Macoute
Type: Retainer
Clan: Samedi
Cost: 1 Pool.
Life: 3
When Tonton Macoute is recruited, the recruiter may burn up to 2 blood, to add 2 Life to Tonton. Each time a Vampire with a Tonton successfully bleeds, Tonton mamy burn 1 Life to increase this bleed by 1.

Sorry for not responding earlier – had a deadline that's now over with and I have a life and time to play VTES again

To answer jamesatzephyr's questions...

Samedi/HoSk involvement: I've suggested a lot of 'shared' cards simply because they have a lot of crossover due to being ex-Cappadocians. Troglodytia is an example of what happened to those Cappy's that weren't sealed in Kaymakli or destroyed by the Giovanni. She seems (in VTES at least) to have fallen into the 'clan progenitor' role following Ashur/Cappadocian's 99.9% diablerie in 1444, so any new Cappadocian embraced post-1444 was also affected by the stronger clan weakness she was inflicted with, eventually being recognised as the Samedi bloodline. Though Troglodytia was not a master of Obfuscate (as an out-of-clan discipline), it was undoubtedly more useful to the new Samedi than Auspex, so somehow Obfuscate replaced Auspex in-clan.

As to discipline spread: I've previously suggested in these forums some new Samedi and HoSk that have levels of both Necromancy and Thanatosis, and also a Master Discipline card for Thanatosis although it's basically the Abombwe master with two disciplines changed....

If it's looking from a game perspective (as HoSk have Trochomancy after all), then fair enough: Samedi need bleed increase more.

"Round": sorry, didn't pick that up when I checked the post. I meant once per controllers' turn per employing vampire (ally suggestion simplifies this and I think is an improvement overall).

"Use": I mean as in to use its ability, but I see your point. I spend my entire day at work writing very technical and accurate system guidance, and things like that just doesn't occur to me when I post here. Now know for next time though, so thanks for the tip.

Heidelberg Castle / Freak drive : FD specifies untapping the vampire, not the retainer (though you could transfer it still), so I'm afraid I don't follow? Does Freak Drive also untap tappable retainers (like Malajit Chandramouli )?

Dave-K2's suggestion is a simpler implementation, although it could be achieved cheaper using Tasha Morgan (unique, but not seen in over a decade at my local game). I feel that Juggernaut1981's version is therefore most fitting. Slight modification as the 'fail blocking' text in Elder Impersonation is presumably where that was going (and it didn't specify if the blocking minion tapped or not).

Tonton Macoute v5
Samedi Ally
1 pool
Zombie. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
You may only control one Tonton Macoute at a time. You may burn 1 life and tap Tonton Macoute to add +1 bleed to a bleed action taken by a Samedi you control. When a Samedi you control is acting and a minion attempts to block, you may burn 2 life and tap Tonton Macoute to cause the attempt to fails (do not tap that blocking minion). That minion cannot attempt to block this action again.
[thn] Tonton has 4 life and may add up to +2 bleed.
[THN] Tonton has 6 life and may add up to +3 bleed.

Best wishes,

Chris.