lightbulb Vehicles

14 Nov 2019 17:11 #97816 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Vehicles
Thanks, but even if this card was judged "not terrible" and "potentially good" like Rewilding, the present game environment just doesn't support it. Current targets for such a card would be Sports Bike and Helicopter, and those are pretty rare as it is. For such a thing to be more than a 1-of or condemned to wall-paper, we'd need some good vehicles.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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15 Nov 2019 19:46 #97829 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Vehicles

But obviously, a card like Rewilding is not a win condition centerpiece like Kindred Spirits is. Why?


Because if you destroy a location with rewilding you cannot oust the owner. Obviously its not a "win condition". There are plenty of locations worthy of burning, but regardless, rewilding is only "utility" instead of "win condition".

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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16 Nov 2019 18:46 #97838 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Vehicles
If your prey is at 2 pool, and I play Rewilding targeting any Location they control, they are ousted, yes? Am I missing something?

When I said "win-condition centerpeice" like Kindred Spirits is, I mean how you can't put 9+ of them in your deck, as a core ousting module like Kindred Spirits, Govern The Unaligned, and KRC. The present card-pool and environment doesn't support it, which is why Rewilding is utility at best, a dead-draw half of the time, and wall-paper at worst.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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18 Nov 2019 00:15 - 18 Nov 2019 00:15 #97851 by narpassword
Replied by narpassword on topic Vehicles

When I said "win-condition centerpeice"


Youre taking the definition of 'win condition' and elevating it with a new descriptor (while simultaneously asserting that your single card 'oust' is a win condition.)

No single card is a "win condition." A win condition is the series of steps that you plan to take in order to win the game.

Eg: bleeding multiple times with a delivery method.

Burning a location (and 2 pool) isnt (currently) a win condition, because you cannot continue doing it once youve burned the 1-2 locations that hit the table.
Last edit: 18 Nov 2019 00:15 by narpassword.

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18 Nov 2019 15:49 #97871 by ReverendRevolver
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Vehicles

When I said "win-condition centerpeice"


Youre taking the definition of 'win condition' and elevating it with a new descriptor (while simultaneously asserting that your single card 'oust' is a win condition.)

No single card is a "win condition." A win condition is the series of steps that you plan to take in order to win the game.

Eg: bleeding multiple times with a delivery method.

Burning a location (and 2 pool) isnt (currently) a win condition, because you cannot continue doing it once youve burned the 1-2 locations that hit the table.


Contesting Dreams of the Sphinx is my favorite win condition

;)

The basics of a deck are how it wants to win and how it keeps from losing.

KS (specifically in mono :DEM: ) is the answer to both questions. Remove beads at a rate of 2to4 per action, gain either 1 or 7 beads each action.

The beautiful thing about VTES is if people want to play a deck with no competent plan for winning, they can. They're accepting the decreased likelihood of winning, but if bleeds of one once thier junk idea comes together one out of 50 games, is the plan, they can do it.
But adding other ways to cockroach out a game isn't a good area of design space. Theres a reason why cards that keep a 0 pool player around are so narrow and specific, its because the goal is to reduce the person to your left to 0 pool. That's part of why seat switchers were a problem. Mostly the talking, but also the official answer included undermining the predator prey dynamic as well.

I'm in agreeance with Karl about more Shadow Boxingesque actions though, especially if they burn pool in the process.

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18 Nov 2019 17:37 #97873 by LivesByProxy
Replied by LivesByProxy on topic Vehicles

No single card is a "win condition." A win condition is the series of steps that you plan to take in order to win the game.

Eg: bleeding multiple times with a delivery method.


I imagine you're fun at a tourney.

Me: "Hey Narpass, is that a new deck?"
Narpass: "Yeah! I built it last night, swept two tables so far."
Me: "Cool! What's your win-con?"
Narpass: "Reducing my prey to 0 pool."

;) :side: :silly:

Seriously though, you're being unhelpfully pedantic. I know what a win-con is. For clarity, in case some people still don't get it:

LivesByProxy wrote was trying to say: "I think it would be cool if some cards, like Rewilding, had entire decks build around them, similar to how Kindred Spirits, KRC, & Govern are staples in certain decks, and even help to form their own deck archetypes. I think Rewilding is a cool card, as it burns pool in a non-conventional way. It has the potential to be a critical piece of a deck's win-condition, and could even be a new deck archetype if the card-pool and environment supported it. But in order for it to really shine, we would need to see more Locations being played. A similar situation would, IMO, be desirable for things like Vehicles, since that would help clans without access to big +bleed disciplines, and make their win-condition a little different than the usual "bleed multiple times with a delivery method."

Contesting Dreams of the Sphinx is my favorite win condition.


I mean, if we had cards that supported the contesting mechanic, forced people to contest with you, made them pay extra pool to contest, etc, then you might would say:

" Yes, this is my Democritus deck. My win-con is getting him out and playing that NEW "force contests" master card as well as that NEW "copies any Location my prey controls" political card, while turning him into a wall with 2ndTradition, National Guard Support, and Obedience."

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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