Share ideas how to use community more in new card design

Ashur wrote:

I think there is a much better discussion climate now, here at VEKN forum, than previously. Bringing up stuff that happenened back in 1995 or so isn´t really good arguments.

Dismissing multiple things that happened much much more recently than that with a twee shrug of the shoulders - that's not a good argument!

Ashur wrote:

All we did here was making some suggestions. Stop the hate?

Deciding that someone who disagrees with you and provides evidence for their beliefs is engaging in hate - that's not a good argument.




It's quite ironic that you're claiming the level of argument has improved, while personally demonstrating the exact opposite.

new cards shall be designed by every VTES player contributing one word. all the words will then be analyzed and assembled into sentences to form the cardtext.

this way, everybody's happy!

jamesatzephyr wrote:

... Since outraged and uncritical behaviour has happened many times before in the history of V:TES, why do you suddenly think human nature has changed so much?

You see, besides not believing in democratic voting of final designs, I think airing out these sort of grievances are good. Because after a while it becomes easy to see where the reactionary element is coming from, filled with their outraged and uncritical behavior, and thus make it easier for the small group to make a better executive decision on what likely needs more examination. To see why the pig squeals loudest looks not only at where they are hurting, but brings in questions and feedback to check qualitatively how valid their cries are.

Just because some group is bombastic does not mean that their argument should be looked at in the better light. I believe noticing the differences in subgroup freak outs helps a small (ideally dispassionate) group to true their way towards better design. As you noted, their behavior went straight to uncritical outrage, which I think helps guide final deciders what NOT to do. To hear all types of cries, one eventually learns which ones are real, and which ones are worth tuning out.

And no, I don't think human nature has changed, and no I don't think VTES discussion has matured so drastically (if noticeably at all).

Again though, community feedback doesn't have to be listened (as in obeyed) to in the end. But by hearing all (cacophonous) perspectives eventually allows decision-makers familiarity with voices. By this they can determine which directions have greater validity, and hear unspoken voices that normally won't make it to the popular playgroups/fora.

Azel wrote:

Again though, community feedback doesn't have to be listened (as in obeyed) to in the end. But by hearing all (cacophonous) perspectives eventually allows decision-makers familiarity with voices. By this they can determine which directions have greater validity, and hear unspoken voices that normally won't make it to the popular playgroups/fora.

I agree.

Extracting the meaningful 2% from the forums is good. But to not use the other 98% without spending all its time justifying itself and being insulted left and right, you must not try to make people believe your're hearing them.

And so again we get back around to the point where:

- The Design Team should be able to see a wide variety of opinions (like those found in Playtest groups or in open public forums)

- The Design Team should also ignore any irrelevant non-helpful opinions in their design process.


So at the present, the broad system SHOULD work like this:

- The Powers That Be (Inner Circle) decide that VEKN is producing a set of X cards.
- The Design Team sit down have a big chat and figure out how they are going to theme the set (e.g. Cam/Sab/Ind/BL, Special Keyword?, Special Angle?)
- The Design Team scour for ideas. Partly from their own brains, but also the forum where things are debated endlessly by numerous people with contradicting views.
- The Playtesters get the drafts of this stuff and try use it. They turn around and let the Design Team know what they think.
- The Design Team edits the cards based on feedback.
- The Playtesters test the next version. (Repeat the last few steps until everyone thinks the cards are ready)
- The Design Team hand the final product to The Powers That Be (ICs) and they see if they're happy to put it out there in the public eye.
- The Set is Published.
- We play VTES with them.


So in other words, it seems like it is already being done. The process just doesn't tell people whose ideas might have been stolen until the set is printed. So just wait. Maybe the cards will turn up in future sets. If this whole process is improved and made efficient, then we will all be able to see which cards have been lifted-edited-polished-finished from the forums.