Possible Unsportsmanlike Conduct?

johannes wrote:

Just so I get this right: You think the better alternative for possible ULC situations is to discuss them afterwards on the Internets instead of calling the judge on site, because that doesn´t help anyway?

But ...

* discussing it here help. There was quite a bit of argument that the play was valid, or that it was more bad play than any other thing. All thing that were not too hard to see when you are not playing and losing because of somebody cross table you suddenly hate for that. In hindsight, I suppose echiang see that it would have been a waste to call a judge.

* calling a judge for unsportmanship tend to be long (since he need to see the event) and somehow aggressive. It's not the judge fault ; it's just that unsportmanship tend to be both very hard to judge and one of the worst offense someone can do.

johannes wrote:

echiang wrote:

Johannes, why does it seem to be such an issue that I am posting about it? Petri also seemed to share that sentiment. Why is it a problem?

It is really not an issue that you post about it, I am just wondering if it was so important to you why you didn´t try to remedy it on site (which I would have done). You say that it could have had negative effects, but judging from your description it couldn´t get much worse anyway (you were ousted by your grandpred). This notion aside I think it is near impossible to communicate what was going on in a game of V:TES without having a very thorough transcript or even a video.

Um, because the whole incident *isn't* very important to me. It was an amusing and interesting anecdote - it wasn't worth making a big fuss about it at the time (and in fact, lots of times people don't bother calling the judge about many things). And frankly, I don't know why some people are making such a big fuss over it right now!

The situation could have gotten very much worse (me being ousted wasn't a big deal. It happens all the time!). But it might be best not to go that route (unless you really insist), lest I be accused of having more secret "agendas" at work.

Similarly, I recently made a thread about spectator interference, which happened during Origins as well. It wasn't a big deal (to me) and wasn't worth trying to remedy onsite. I do think it makes for an interesting discussion though.

Ohlmann wrote:

johannes wrote:

Just so I get this right: You think the better alternative for possible ULC situations is to discuss them afterwards on the Internets instead of calling the judge on site, because that doesn´t help anyway?

But ...

* discussing it here help. There was quite a bit of argument that the play was valid, or that it was more bad play than any other thing. All thing that were not too hard to see when you are not playing and losing because of somebody cross table you suddenly hate for that. In hindsight, I suppose echiang see that it would have been a waste to call a judge.

* calling a judge for unsportmanship tend to be long (since he need to see the event) and somehow aggressive. It's not the judge fault ; it's just that unsportmanship tend to be both very hard to judge and one of the worst offense someone can do.

If Eric didn't call a judge to deal with the situation then he shouldn't put forward to the community the notion that it could have been Unsportsmanlike Conduct. It's pretty unfair to the judge and the player in-question to wait until after the fact, with no evidence, proof, or the other player's side being heard publicly, to suggest that such a heinous event might have taken place.

Other than that, I think it's totally fine to discuss such events in public, and even a mostly good thing to get the points-of-view of other players, judges, and the community at-large.

echiang wrote:

The situation could have gotten very much worse (me being ousted wasn't a big deal. It happens all the time!). But it might be best not to go that route (unless you really insist), lest I be accused of having more secret "agendas" at work.

If you are worried about the mechanics of you playing in a tournament because of some sort of fear of being accused of having a "secret agenda" then you have much larger problems than anyone here can help you with, I think.

KevinM wrote:

If you are worried about the mechanics of you playing in a tournament because of some sort of fear of being accused of having a "secret agenda" then you have much larger problems than anyone here can help you with, I think.

PetriWessman wrote:

Why are you bringing this up here, instead of asking the judges at the site? What's *your* agenda, here?

Eric *was* accused of having an agenda. This is not a hypothetical.

What is YOUR agenda for an ad hominem against him?
(See, this is a fun game to play! I hope my ironic intent comes through.)

KevinM wrote:

If Eric didn't call a judge to deal with the situation then he shouldn't put forward to the community the notion that it could have been Unsportsmanlike Conduct. It's pretty unfair to the judge and the player in-question to wait until after the fact, with no evidence, proof, or the other player's side being heard publicly, to suggest that such a heinous event might have taken place.

1. Perhaps "Play to Win violation?" would have been a more appropriate title than "Unsportsmanlike Conduct." I don't have much expertise on the finer details of either, another reason why getting feedback from members of the community (who are more experienced than I) seemed logical.

2. Nothing is preventing the other player from sharing their side publicly. In fact, I've seen that player viewing this very thread. If their motives were innocuous and completely kosher, then it's case closed. Even if they weren't comfortable posting publicly, they could always relay their reasoning to you (Kevin) who could then post on their behalf.

3. If you really want to investigate potential "evidence" or "proof," you could always query the other 3 members of the table, to get their perspective on what happened. Why don't you do that? I'd also be interested in how they viewed the situation - it would be educational for me too.

4. Historically in VTES, there have been quite a number of Play to Win / Unsportsmanlike concerns, especially due to cross-table ousts (it's inherent to most multi-player games). Similarly there have also been plenty of shady table splits (especially by players from the same country or playgroup). It's not uncommon for people to not call a judge immediately. (For example, the other players might not realize that the table splitters were from the same playgroup until after the game).