What make VtES hard to learn
14 Oct 2012 04:03 #39060
by LunaSlave
Replied by LunaSlave on topic Re: What make VtES hard to learn
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02 Nov 2012 06:34 #40257
by the1andonlime
Suaku
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Replied by the1andonlime on topic Re: What make VtES hard to learn
I personally think that Vtes is hard to pick up on your own, but not so hard when you are taught with the right tools.
Years back, when I did Vtes demos during a local convention, I found it relatively easy to teach the game. What was difficult was sitting down to decide what goes into the demo decks and what doesn't. At the end of the day, we decided to leave out politics, diablerie and combat cards with weird timings. We did have a smattering of cards with more complex mechanics just to show that there's more to the game than the demo version.
We net 5+ new semi-regular players from that one event (although we lost some over the years), and no one complained about the game's complexity during the demo, so I think that was a good idea (that we unfortunately never did do again)
Years back, when I did Vtes demos during a local convention, I found it relatively easy to teach the game. What was difficult was sitting down to decide what goes into the demo decks and what doesn't. At the end of the day, we decided to leave out politics, diablerie and combat cards with weird timings. We did have a smattering of cards with more complex mechanics just to show that there's more to the game than the demo version.
We net 5+ new semi-regular players from that one event (although we lost some over the years), and no one complained about the game's complexity during the demo, so I think that was a good idea (that we unfortunately never did do again)
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
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www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
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02 Nov 2012 09:35 #40267
by drnlmza
Partly it's complexity - once they start playing with the regular crowd, they do get hit by a whole bunch of new stuff quite quickly.
Partly I think it's competiveness. A new player will likely only have 1 decent deck, and, if the meta-game shifts, suddenly the new player is losing a lot more often and doesn't have the resources to react well. We try to mitigate this by maintaing a pool of cards new players can buy cheaply and so forth, but the players need to also put in the time working on deck ideas.
I keep feeling that this is something we could manage better, although I'm not quite sure how. Does anyone have any advice on methods for easing new players into the core player group?
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South Africa
Replied by drnlmza on topic Re: What make VtES hard to learn
We've had reasonable success at getting people to try the game and play it a few times with various demos locally, but we do have a problem with getting players to stay in the game after a few months. The past couple years, we've had 3 or 4 new players start and play for a while, but at least 2 have dropped out within 6 months each year.We net 5+ new semi-regular players from that one event (although we lost some over the years), and no one complained about the game's complexity during the demo, so I think that was a good idea (that we unfortunately never did do again)
Partly it's complexity - once they start playing with the regular crowd, they do get hit by a whole bunch of new stuff quite quickly.
Partly I think it's competiveness. A new player will likely only have 1 decent deck, and, if the meta-game shifts, suddenly the new player is losing a lot more often and doesn't have the resources to react well. We try to mitigate this by maintaing a pool of cards new players can buy cheaply and so forth, but the players need to also put in the time working on deck ideas.
I keep feeling that this is something we could manage better, although I'm not quite sure how. Does anyone have any advice on methods for easing new players into the core player group?
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
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02 Nov 2012 11:05 #40273
by Boris The Blade
Replied by Boris The Blade on topic Re: What make VtES hard to learn
Allow proxies in your casual games? Lend new players your decks instead of cards? Show them Secret library to netdeck?
Deckbuilding is harshly punishing in VTES because a bad deck not only doesn't win, it jams. Losing is acceptable for a new player, sitting at the table doing nothing is not.
Deckbuilding is harshly punishing in VTES because a bad deck not only doesn't win, it jams. Losing is acceptable for a new player, sitting at the table doing nothing is not.
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02 Nov 2012 16:17 #40305
by ICL
Replied by ICL on topic Re: What make VtES hard to learn
With games with many sets, you run into a quick information overload issue. New players could play in some sort of sealed league for a while to be on a level playing field with veterans, then move on to constructed play. But, what I find is that groups that have played a long time don't have a lot of patience. "Been there, done that" leads to boredom when trying to dumb down deck construction or when playing with limited card pools. And, veteran players often forget what it was like to try to learn unfamiliar concepts to where the attitude of the group turns off prospective players.
One thing to consider is making a list of the 50 cards that are the most important to understand what they do in an effort to cut down on info overload. Then, an unknown card can be compared to a known card.
I also like the idea that some use who haven't played throughout the game's history of playing cards only from certain sets as that's how people like me were introduced to those sets. That, of course, runs into the problem of opponents not doing the same and having to learn what other cards do anyway, but it's some help.
One thing to consider is making a list of the 50 cards that are the most important to understand what they do in an effort to cut down on info overload. Then, an unknown card can be compared to a known card.
I also like the idea that some use who haven't played throughout the game's history of playing cards only from certain sets as that's how people like me were introduced to those sets. That, of course, runs into the problem of opponents not doing the same and having to learn what other cards do anyway, but it's some help.
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02 Nov 2012 16:57 #40308
by brandonsantacruz
Interesting idea... brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/2012/11/50-cards-every-vtes-player-should-know.html
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Replied by brandonsantacruz on topic Re: What make VtES hard to learn
One thing to consider is making a list of the 50 cards that are the most important to understand what they do in an effort to cut down on info overload. Then, an unknown card can be compared to a known card.
Interesting idea... brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/2012/11/50-cards-every-vtes-player-should-know.html
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
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