How I would relaunch VTES (another voice)

This only counts for a compatible reboot of VTES.
I thought I'd place my own since I'm not liking the proposals I see from others.

Complexity

VTES as a whole is a complex game, this is NOT a problem, this is it's best selling point, it's the distinguishing factor.
Question is; how do we make this complexity less daunting for new players, I say through a smart upgrade path. Heck stick a complexity rating on the packaging.

Base Set (1) -> Base Theme Set (2) -> Theme Set (3)

Numbers in parens are complexity rating

Base set (Complexity 1)

Compose a base set with cards that are easy for new players to learn the game with using cards that can be competitive in tournaments. Ankha's effort in sorting good cards from wallpaper cards should be used. Base set should include:
- Starters only
- Camarilla/Sabbat
- A very limited amount of sect cards
- A very limited amount of clan cards

Previous Sabbat/Camarilla release cycles where ok (Anually alternate between Camarilla/Sabbat), but for one fact, the set was too huge and contained a massive amount of wallpaper cards.

Each release should also see a small amount of new well balanced and competitive cards.
The starters don't alter much from year to year, just sprinkle in new cards from theme set releases if it fits the general design.

Base theme set (Complexity 2)

Alongside the base set, you can release an annual Base Theme Set containing cards that expand on clan and sect, but are not contained in the Base Set starters. They are considered an expansion and thus contain more complexity.

The Base Theme sets allow new players to spice up their Base Starter kits and add complexity. Same as the Base Starter Sets, it doesn't change much, perhaps annually replace some cards from Theme sets if it fits the design.

Theme set (Complexity 3)

Theme sets SHOULD add complexity, new play styles and settings. These sets are EXPANSIONS adding more depth to the game. They SHOULD be about Independent, Liabon, Bloodlines, Blackhand, Anarch and even *cough* Imbued. Again refrain from wallpaper sale strategies. Previously I said theme sets should only contain boosters, now I see that's a bad idea for new players wanting to explore new themes, starters are really needed, starting players should be able to pick up a starter and play the new theme right away.
- starters
- boosters
- Decent amount of clan/sect cards
- No pure sabbat/camarilla themes, keep that as Base, blackhand etc. is ok.

Ideally 2 theme sets should be released each year.

Bad parts, the culling

I believe the design team already have an extensive list for errata's. It's my believe this is plenty to deal with the bad parts. Really bad ideas (research area) should remain legal for play, but never ever reprinted or worked further upon. I know the purists would rather see these eye sores banned, but there's really no need to. They hardly see play anyways, but when they do, it might be fun to watch.

The base set IS the culling people look for, intended for new players, I just see no reason to abolish the Theme sets already out there or in the future. My guess is people look at their amassed collections, see it as a whole and say "these parts are too hard for new players", but thats really the wrong way to look at it.

I started this game back in 94, bought the base set and boosters, learned the game, wanted more, bought the theme sets and the game did expand further which was what I was looking for. Others stuck to the base set clans and only used theme set cards they needed for their base set decks. THIS is how new players start and expand, they don't look at the game as a whole, they buy low complexity and expand further.

Now VTES was always a game where cards from a base set are competitive enough to win tournaments with (you just have to buy shitloads and this is what should be reduced), the rest is just flavour. And the only REAL bad part I would say, is the sheer amount of wallpaper cards in the old sets (requiring a huge investment to be competitive).

In terms of new players we should aim for quantity, not who has the biggest wallet. Making your product too expensive to be feasible will eventually lead to declining sales and a shrinking fan base as we've seen so far.

Crap please move this to appropriate forum.
I added a topic from "Recent Topics" again...

GreyB wrote:

This only counts for a compatible reboot of VTES.
I thought I'd place my own since I'm not liking the proposals I see from others.

Complexity

VTES as a whole is a complex game, this is NOT a problem, this is it's best selling point, it's the distinguishing factor.

I agree with this 100%. However, if keeping the rules as is, the rulebook needs to be rewritten for clarity. And I would also revamp the Detailed Play Summary to explicitly outline the timing in this game, with card rulings linked at points where card text/interactions take precedence over the normal timing outline.

I like the rest of your idea on graduated complexity of sets. Best Idea I've sen so far.

Game complexity and rules complexity is not the same. The best games out there reach deepness and complexity with rulebooks that are not tens of pages. Complexity comes from cards and players possible interactions. Too many niche rules should be avoided.

alek wrote:

Game complexity and rules complexity is not the same. The best games out there reach deepness and complexity with rulebooks that are not tens of pages. Complexity comes from cards and players possible interactions. Too many niche rules should be avoided.

Yes, in another thread some time ago, rule additions where discussed briefly. Game designers should really avoid rule additions, but should not be shunned entirely. Always look first if a new rule feature can be added with cards only. A prime example is corruption counters, rule wise they mean nothing until cards start to interact with them.

Some existing rule additions can also be made obsolete by switching to a card only implementation, the slave attribute could be redesigned in such a way for example and thus dropping the slave rule all together.

These small changes should be discussed in separate thread preferably though, I currently feel all threads about a reprint are quite chaotic, jumping from detail topic to detail topic...

Another idea I've been thinking about that fits this release plan.

Formats

1 new format should be introduced; "quickplay" and the starter kits designed for this format. Once you opt. for expansions, you will have to play the advanced format. Both formats should be described in the rule book. Higher capacity vampires should only be contained in expansions.

Quickplay format

Base Set Starter should be designed for the quickplay format.
Maximum capacity 6 vampires (base starter kit should contain no higher cap. vampires).
Each player starts with 20 pool.
And thats it, the rest of the rules apply.

Probably requires new vampire designs and better balanced cards for in-clan disciplines, so that dominate doesn't own the quickplay format. Some other cards probably need to be errata'd or banned from quickplay format as well.

Could be fun to playtest if anyone is up for it

Advanced format

Basically the game as we play it currently, 30 starting pool, no capacity limit.

With the Base Set Starter cards retooled to balance 6 max. cap vamps, playing big cap vamps will probably see a balance issue. There should be a real advantage in playing big cap vampires, so thats a challenge for designers.