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What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
23 Feb 2017 12:13 #80815
by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
Yup. many a time I've taught newbies they've had problems differentiating stealth from Action Modifiers and Action cards that have built in stealth.
TwoRazorReign's suggestion sounded pretty good at a glance:
"Abbott (current text):
+1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire.
Put this card on the acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her...
Abbott (revised text):
Requires a Sabbat vampire.
Put this card on the acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her (+1 stealth)..."
TwoRazorReign's suggestion sounded pretty good at a glance:
"Abbott (current text):
+1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire.
Put this card on the acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her...
Abbott (revised text):
Requires a Sabbat vampire.
Put this card on the acting Sabbat vampire and untap him or her (+1 stealth)..."
Finnish
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23 Feb 2017 13:42 #80820
by TwoRazorReign
So, the idea isn't necessarily to make the description of how stealth works clearer via card text. That ship has sailed long ago. It's more to remove the persistent confusion among new players who try to play action cards for stealth. With that said, you bring up a good point, and making things less clear in the process of fixing something else should definitely be avoided. In that sense, there certainly would need to be an explanation in the rulebook what the parenthetical stealth modifier on action cards means. I'd imagine it would go under 6.1.6, where it explains that unless otherwise noted, action cards are played at 0 stealth.
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
I don't think that's much clearer (if not less clear) than the way Stealth is already described. that's just me though.
So, the idea isn't necessarily to make the description of how stealth works clearer via card text. That ship has sailed long ago. It's more to remove the persistent confusion among new players who try to play action cards for stealth. With that said, you bring up a good point, and making things less clear in the process of fixing something else should definitely be avoided. In that sense, there certainly would need to be an explanation in the rulebook what the parenthetical stealth modifier on action cards means. I'd imagine it would go under 6.1.6, where it explains that unless otherwise noted, action cards are played at 0 stealth.
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24 Feb 2017 13:43 - 24 Feb 2017 13:50 #80834
by Boris The Blade
Dominate Kine would go from:
+1 stealth action.
Bleed with +1 bleed.
to
1 stealth action
Bleed with 2 bleed.
Bonuses on action card are a vestige from Jyhad where the values on vampires were considered base values (e.g. 2Strength instead of +1 Strength), but that was changed long ago.
Finally, it would save card text to change the default in the rules to 0 Stealth for
actions and 1 stealth for undirected. I guess this alone would remove more than half of the stealth mentions on action cards.
Replied by Boris The Blade on topic What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
It does not have to be that way. Actions could define the relevant base amounts in absolute terms, and modifiers be written with +. So for example,
the card is an action (action symbol). Actions are taken by default at 0 stealth. All bonuses (+bleed, +strength, +votes) are expressed as "+" modifiers. I'm opened to suggestions.

+1 stealth action.

to
1 stealth action

Bonuses on action card are a vestige from Jyhad where the values on vampires were considered base values (e.g. 2Strength instead of +1 Strength), but that was changed long ago.
Finally, it would save card text to change the default in the rules to 0 Stealth for

Last edit: 24 Feb 2017 13:50 by Boris The Blade.
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24 Feb 2017 14:04 #80836
by TwoRazorReign
It's a good suggestion, but I don't think that goes far enough to fix the problem. The stealth modifier should not be the first thing mentioned on action cards. New players see "stealth" at the top of the text box and want to use it. I'd actually argue that the stealth modifier should go last wherever possible on action cards. Action cards, which are often complex and can contain a lot of text, should have a "inverted pyramid" structure to the text: the most important information should appear first, followed by less important information. In other words, requirements first, a description of what the card does next, and stealth modifier last.
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
It does not have to be that way. Actions could define the relevant base amounts in absolute terms, and modifiers be written with +. So for example,
the card is an action (action symbol). Actions are taken by default at 0 stealth. All bonuses (+bleed, +strength, +votes) are expressed as "+" modifiers. I'm opened to suggestions.Dominate Kine would go from:
+1 stealth action.Bleed with +1 bleed.
to
1 stealth actionBleed with 2 bleed.
Bonuses on action card are a vestige from Jyhad where the values on vampires were considered base values (e.g. 2Strength instead of +1 Strength), but that was changed long ago.
Finally, it would save card text to change the default in the rules to 0 Stealth foractions and 1 stealth for undirected. I guess this alone would remove more than half of the stealth mentions on action cards.
It's a good suggestion, but I don't think that goes far enough to fix the problem. The stealth modifier should not be the first thing mentioned on action cards. New players see "stealth" at the top of the text box and want to use it. I'd actually argue that the stealth modifier should go last wherever possible on action cards. Action cards, which are often complex and can contain a lot of text, should have a "inverted pyramid" structure to the text: the most important information should appear first, followed by less important information. In other words, requirements first, a description of what the card does next, and stealth modifier last.
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24 Feb 2017 19:52 - 24 Feb 2017 19:52 #80840
by Ankha
Isn't that contradictory? Jyhad vampires mentioned "2 strength" and "+1 stealth" (without action), so there's no common ground between those two.
Replied by Ankha on topic What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
Bonuses on action card are a vestige from Jyhad where the values on vampires were considered base values (e.g. 2Strength instead of +1 Strength), but that was changed long ago.
Isn't that contradictory? Jyhad vampires mentioned "2 strength" and "+1 stealth" (without action), so there's no common ground between those two.
Last edit: 24 Feb 2017 19:52 by Ankha.
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27 Feb 2017 12:09 #80880
by Lönkka
This might also not be the clearest wording as some people might think that the "1 stealth action" would mean that you can't increase the stealth.
Replied by Lönkka on topic What are common mistakes you've seen when teaching new players?
[So for example,
Dominate Kine would go from:
+1 stealth action.Bleed with +1 bleed.
to
1 stealth actionBleed with 2 bleed.
This might also not be the clearest wording as some people might think that the "1 stealth action" would mean that you can't increase the stealth.
Finnish
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