Number of VtES players

elotar wrote:

You are fine, there are several people like you (me included ).

Unfortunately for 99,9% of potential VtES players it's not fine, so they will not continue playing after such experience. Which is actually nor fine for us two, because we need 5 people to have a game and at least 12 to have meaningful tournament.
...

Since we're apparently in the number crunching stage, my sample size is over my play history is total of 8 people recruited. That's my number, not the number of local group or community but people I've said "hey, let's try this that then have agreed to it." Out of those 1 dropped the game due to studies and social stress unrelated to the game. 2 moved hundreds of km's with strong ties to new locations along with social timesinks (as adults with families do). So that's 62.5% retention rate with 0% combat related reasons for leaving. I predict in couple years that number will drop with one or two players as I've observed closer to 50% from others as well.

Care to elobrate further how you've arrived to your numbers? Perhaps we can ponder how people tend to leave in your group after their combat experience with such certainty and what can be done for it locally? Have you already tried to run some variant storylines and if you have, what kind? Have those formats retained the new players better?

Mewcat wrote:

It seems pretty obvious that vtes has trouble attracting and keeping players. What is the active global population? 500?

"1.5. How many members does the V:EKN currently have?

[08-05-2016] The V:EKN currently has 15220 members (players with a V:EKN number). However, only 1078 can be considered active (i.e, having played a V:EKN sanctioned tournament recently)."

Amount of people with cards playing at their own terms without partaking in the VEKN community events cannot be measured as it would require drawing line whether "player" requires weekly, monthly, yearly etc. play and what kind of formats etc. People inflate/deflate that number at their leasure to fit their needs and arguments.

1000 isn't very many considering you would get around 300 at magic pre release back in the day.

Kilrauko wrote:

Since we're apparently in the number crunching stage, my sample size is over my play history is total of 8 people recruited.

I can't find 2019 ropecon stats.
2018 - 49
2017 - 37
2016 - 42
2015 - 52
2014 - 47
2013 - 72
2012 - 71
2011 - 90
2010 - 93

Not enough.

elotar wrote:

Kilrauko wrote:

Since we're apparently in the number crunching stage, my sample size is over my play history is total of 8 people recruited.

I can't find 2019 ropecon stats.
2018 - 49
2017 - 37
2016 - 42
2015 - 52
2014 - 47
2013 - 72
2012 - 71
2011 - 90
2010 - 93

Not enough.

What Ropecon VTES event tournament numbers have to do with combat being barrier for potential VTES players? I haven't taken part to Ropecon since 1999, not even when I was "active" in the local VTES group during the 2001-2008 or so. I've personally been away from VTES since 2009 and became "active" few months back, despite that I wouldn't have taken part in this year's Ropecon (or it's VTES event.) To my knowledge none of those 8 people I've recruited to the game have taken part in Ropecons VTES event either, not during the ones you quoted or the ones before 2010 when few of them were active as well. Were they somehow not new potential players to the game? What's more if one looks at, say www.vekn.net/player-registry/event/7679 little bit closer then just participant numbers, you'll find certain interesting details. Only one of those players was a "new" player, aka their first tournament was that one. Everyone else was in my opinion no longer a "potential" player, considering they've been in events before and therefore have experienced the "ruining combat". What's more if you look at the only "new" player (I don't personally know them, they might have played for decade and decided to finally get their tournament feet wet), yet they continued to be active and take part in the next Ropecon event a year later. So if there is something in the combat that drives potential players away 99.9% of the time, it wasn't present back in 2014 Ropecon event. Feel free to check bit closer to the other event numbers and their participants with event history and you might see what trends they make and how much they support your claim. I hope you're more accurate in the future as false information and claims benefit nobody, especially when it comes to design choices.

If you basing your argument (... Unfortunately for 99,9% of potential VtES players it's not fine, so they will not continue playing after such experience. ...) on yearly tournament numbers on your end, are you overlooking everything else? For example local games that make up the bulk of yearly playtime many as opposed to tournaments taking 3+F aka max 8 hours in the table? I assumed you had some personal experience with multiple potential players trying the game for a first time as opposed to players new to the tournaments. If you're using just statistics remember V:EKN events won't track who is "new player" or even "potential player" to VTES, only who takes part in V:EKN events and hence the player list. What's more as I've already proven with the 2014 Ropecon event, it's easy to be mistaken just by looking at the raw numbers instead understanding the complete picture beyond those.

Please check the post you quoted from me as there were few questions that should be easily answered that can also shed some additional insight to this discussion beyond the insight we've already gained from this.

elotar wrote:

Unfortunately for 99,9% of potential VtES players it's not fine, so they will not continue playing after such experience.

I can't stop thinking about this whole COMBAT DRIVES AWAY PEOPLE thing. The very notion makes almost no sense to me. Every game and system is going to have strategies that are considered abusive and 'not in the spirit of the game.' But those strategies require a person playing the game to utilize those strategies.

Elotar, what is going on in your playgroup's games? Do you have veteran players dropping the hammer on your new players?

Thankfully, I've never had to ask a player in my group to not slam dunk a new player, and I wouldn't invite them back if they continued to do so after being asked not to.

Kilrauko wrote:

I've personally been away from VTES since 2009 and became "active" few months back, despite that I wouldn't have taken part in this year's Ropecon (or it's VTES event.)

And most probably you will disappear again after a few more months. I'm quite long camper here, have seen countless such new (or returned) enthusiastic players, unfortunately most of them are not present any more. And we will never know what was the cause of their disappearance, but we can guess (which is not hard if you know anything about ccg design).

I'm using Ropecon statistics as some countable measure of player engagement in your general area. Cool stories about new players are fine, but mean nothing - new playgroups are always forming, but you have to compare it to the old playgroups demises.