file VTES online competion statistic

28 Dec 2019 17:08 #98356 by beslin igor
VTES online competion statistic

Hi Methuselah!
I want to give you some history about online VTES.
We start first tournament 2015,we dont have big experience how that can work and format 2R+Finals take total 2 mounth.
Long time we wait for next tournament-2017.,this tournament start in april but finish next year february(betwen start and end this tournament we play some tournament).
In march 2018. we get in online playing Martin Weinmayer,who have idea to we organize online world championchip.
Him going to USA where met future Americans admins: Mark Jasper,Karl Schaefer and Adam Hulse.
First we start litle summer test league who finish sucesful and in september we start with world championship.
During summer 2018. Kai Kimmerle give his vtes-hook.com page for results online competions and him with Martin create online world ranking list who is published in october 2018.
After finish world championship in 2018. we continue with organizing every mounth in 2019. online competions,online world championship too.
In 2019. we have record number in organizing online competions-13 total,we will continue with organizing in 2020. too!
I want to represent all online competion statistic in hook page.

Link : vtes-hook.com/show-news

First you can see all online competion winners,with number of win type of competions and in last rubric number total days if player be N1 in world ranking list.
Next is : statistic top player in world ranking list,there you can see who be N1 and start and end dates.
Next rubris is : VTES online competion statistic,there you can see name event,winner,winner country,what him got VP in finals,how much him get ratings in this competion,how much people
play,start and end date competion,how much days competions take and formula competions.
Enjoy
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29 Sep 2021 13:45 #103384 by Miller
How does the rank presented in the www.vtes-hook.com relate to the official rankings of VEKN?

The vtes-hook used to be an unofficial compilation of online gaming (namely in Lackey CCG) with no relation to the VEKN ranking system. Nonetheless, the recent times saw an increased number of sanctioned online tournaments and some of those were covered by the vtes-hook statistics (e.g. Atlantic Cup) while many others were not. In view of such approach that considers both unsanctioned online leagues and selected official tournaments in the same spreadsheet, what is the vtes-hook ranking/measuring at all?

I must say I have strong reservations regarding the integrity of data compiled there. It seems to me that pre-2020 events are especially unverified, considering that online tournaments were not official yet and that the concern to make clear to all participants that the results would be later registered as part of an “online ranking” was not a constant at that time.

It is important to highlight the fact that many listed players in the vtes-hook database are identified solely by a Lackey CCG nickname, which may lead to several misrepresentations taking into account that a Lackey nickname is just what the name implies: a Lackey nickname. Therefore, it is not unusual that, at a certain point, a given player may have used/uses different nicknames (reflected as 2 different players in the vtes-hook statistics). Moreover, 2 or more different players may have used/use the same nickname (which leads to the results of different players being registered under the same entry).
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29 Sep 2021 16:38 - 29 Sep 2021 17:00 #103392 by blackkn8
Hello Miller,
thanks for this discussion. Because you identify a lot of problems, a page like www.vtes-hook.com and also the vekn page itself has.

I hope I can help to clarify most of them.
Try to make a small summary
  1. Is vtes-hook official?
  2. What is the difference between vtes-hook and vekn.net?
  3. How did the ranking work?
  4. Why are not all tournaments listed?
  5. How trustworthy are the data and statistics?
  6. Especially in online tournaments, a player can play with two different names. This can distort the statistics.
  7. How did you get the VEKN ID?
  8. How will the Deck names and types be identified?
Hope this summary is complete, if not I'm sorry, and let me know it.

Short introducing, I'm the prince of Wiesbaden and play VTES since more than 20 Years (OMG I'm really old...) I am a developer (owner of vtes-hook) and passionate statistics collector.

So here are your answers: (I must say sorry, because it's a bit more text I expected ^^)
1.
At this time, only vekn.net has an official ranking. The ranking from vtes-hook is only the ranking of all collected games we got at vtes-hook.

But as far as we know, vtes-hook is the only page with a public tournament data collection, for offline and online tournaments.

2.
The vtes-hook statistic page is a private project. And at this time it's only a summary of tournaments/games, to get a statistic of the meta-games, Decks and so on. The idea of a ranking, is the consequence of collecting this data.

The part of the competition is the main aspect of the game, so it should be normal to create a ranking to let the player find something they can "fight" for. (If this will also be an imaginary ranking).

We try to find a way to corporate with vekn.net but for this there are many things to do. Until then, many rules and laws and technical problems must be coordinated. Which, unfortunately, will take a little while if we are to get that far.

3.
Our RP calculation (www.vtes-hook.com/vtes/show-world-ranking?ranking=tournament&show=worldrank) works like the ranking at vekn.net (www.vekn.net/index.php/rating-system) do. But only with the reported games we have.

We have some differences because online tournaments works not all the time like a real tournaments work. It is till now not normal to spend a whole day on lackey or other online versions of vtes. This is "new". The idea of tournaments is the wish of a lot of players who spent 2-4hours a day and want to have more than a fun game. And so we try find a solution for.

We do not have all the data vekn.net gets (especial the usernames, real names vekn id and so on.). We get all our games from volunteers or tournaments who send us their advanced archon.

4.
It is hard to say, but this is the main problem of a page like this, to collect the games/tournaments. The archon itself is not easy to get (old tournament s are not available), and so I can only collect what I get from tournament organizers. Or from local playgroups who are generally interested in their own meta game. But the archon itself is not enough, I also need the name and type of the decks of each player. And to be honest, this data is not available in any archon. And this work has nobody done before.

I'm in contact with a small group of people who submit me games and tables or complete Tournaments data. And from all of them I get lackey names, real names or the vekn id.

This is work to collect this data, and send them to me. And the only afford this will have is the "statistics". Not everyone is interested to do this. (But a lot of player wants to have this).

And so I have to say thank you to all of you who spend to collect and send them to me.
At this time, many thanks to Igor. Who is a big volunteer at this project.

5.
The question of trustworthiness is academic. Because statistics can be believed or not. I can only say this much. None of us has anything from deliberate errors / false data to deposit.

And I say it all the time and will repeat it again:
Submit me your archons, tell me the decknames and types of the used decks and players and I will update this to the page. If you are not interested to do this work.
If you are interested to do it. Register yourselve to the page, submit me the "grant request". And I will allow you to submit your own games. To collect it to your community. This is free of charge, and without adds!

Be a part of it, and you can see how it works and you can get your own statistics.... .

6.
The problem of different lackey names is not so hard, as you think, but will still exist.
We collect the VEKN ID if we get it. (We DO NOT collect real names, email or any other personal data without permission from an individual. Because we respect the GDPR General Data Protection Regulation. Many thanks to the EU. But to be honest, the GDPR is a fantastic thing, but it makes a project like this not easy! More complex and not easy to handle.)

So we check if the lackey or username already exist in our database. In some cases, we have a VEKN ID attached. And so we can be sure, that we have the same player in the game as before.

But if we do not have a VEKN Id then we have the problem, that there can be two users in one lackey name. Or Two lackey names with one user. That is the problem by online games. Nobody knows who is playing. Only on official tournament, who will be submitted to vekn page, will have the VEKN ID but no deck names. And for online games we only have lackey names and normally no vekn id.) We try the best to reduce the amount of problems. But we can't solve this at all.And do our best

7. Mostly from the player itself. Users can register themselves and submit us the VEKN ID and permission, and connect himself with his lackeyname.
A lot of players gave us the data by email, discord, Teamspeak and other communications. Or from official resources like the archon. But in that cases, we do not use the real name or email. In that special cases, we create a synonym for the user, to protect their privacy.

8.
The next problem is to find a unique naming for decks and types. So you do not have x names for the same kind of deck. And this is the major problem. Who will have his deck name fit to a generally naming?
We create a small category for types. (What was really not easy to get it).
So we have most in cases the bleed, vote, combat, block/wall and toolbox Deck. And the last one, is "not classified".
We think, that should explain the main feature of the deck.


I hope this will be the answer to all of your questions. If not, please ask again. Or send me mail ().

Prince of Wiesbaden, Germany
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Last edit: 29 Sep 2021 17:00 by blackkn8.
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30 Sep 2021 13:35 - 30 Sep 2021 13:50 #103399 by Miller
Dear blackkn8,

Thank you for taking the time to provide this very comprehensive reply to my post. There are, however, a few remarks I would like to make regarding your clarifications.

I understand vtes-hook is a private project and I recognize the hard work that has been put into it by you and others. Nonetheless, when you point “at this time, only vekn.net has an official ranking” I can’t help but hope that it stays as such. I will try to further elaborate on that.

As you explain, vtes-hook data is obtained via voluntary report from players and organizers not mattering if the event was sanctioned or not. My point is that, due to (let’s put this way) the very flexible approach, the data gathered in that platform is not reliable. Hypothetically, I could report, for example, the results of an obscure league I played with some close friends in Lackey, informing only Lackey nicknames used at the time, and those results would be considered a source as valid as an official sanctioned event in the VEKN database.

It all becomes more misleading when such results are used to build a parallel ranking (that can consider basically anything). When anything can be a valid input for a ranking (depending on the willingness of people to report), then that ranking has absolutely no meaning. It is not an academic discussion or a matter of believing in statistics or not, but of disagreeing with the methodology used to obtain the data in the specific statistics we are dealing here.

Finally, I have some comments regarding privacy. You mentioned “We DO NOT collect real names, email or any other personal data without permission from an individual”. I assume you also consider the need of individual permission to collect the VEKN ID from a given player, since many of those VEKN IDs are linked to personal data. If that is not the case, I would strongly advise you to observe this routine. Ideally, players should be made aware that data regarding their participation in a given event will be further uploaded in the vtes-hook in addition to (in place of) the VEKN website.
Last edit: 30 Sep 2021 13:50 by Miller.

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30 Sep 2021 16:35 #103401 by blackkn8
Hi Miller,
will try to answer you. If you have any further question please no hesitate to ask... :-)


....
As you explain, vtes-hook data is obtained via voluntary report from players and organizers not mattering if the event was sanctioned or not. My point is that, due to (let’s put this way) the very flexible approach, the data gathered in that platform is not reliable. Hypothetically, I could report, for example, the results of an obscure league I played with some close friends in Lackey, informing only Lackey nicknames used at the time, and those results would be considered a source as valid as an official sanctioned event in the VEKN database.
....

I understand the apprehension behind that. But I can refute it.
For exactly this reason, not all games will be count to our ranking system. (maybe I should explain this first...^^)
All event managers, from hook-page, can decide that their event will be count to our official ranking or not. (And that is one of the reason, that not everyone who registered at hook-page will be able to be an event manager. Most of them are a prince or trustworthy persons.)
And so only from our side sanctioned, events will count to our official ranking.


....
It all becomes more misleading when such results are used to build a parallel ranking (that can consider basically anything). When anything can be a valid input for a ranking (depending on the willingness of people to report), then that ranking has absolutely no meaning. It is not an academic discussion or a matter of believing in statistics or not, but of disagreeing with the methodology used to obtain the data in the specific statistics we are dealing here.
....

To be honest, what you are saying here is very simple, and can be reproduced in real life and is therefore (in my opinion) only valid to a limited extent.
Every prince can announce "tournaments" to which his friends come to get some result or to push people. The "Archon" file is primarily only checked "formally". Meaning a "Ranking pushing" is also possible in real life, with little effort.

But that is also a reason, why only chosen users can submit events.
In addition, I'm checking several times in the events to make sure that everything is fine and works. And no one try to "push" somebody like you say.


....
Finally, I have some comments regarding privacy. You mentioned “We DO NOT collect real names, email or any other personal data without permission from an individual”. I assume you also consider the need of individual permission to collect the VEKN ID from a given player, since many of those VEKN IDs are linked to personal data. If that is not the case, I would strongly advise you to observe this routine. Ideally, players should be made aware that data regarding their participation in a given event will be further uploaded in the vtes-hook in addition to (in place of) the VEKN website.


All data, what will upload at vtes-hook here, are communicated to all participants. These are a lackey name, game details (eg deck data, seating and date time). Not more.
If people submit us a VEKN we save this and hide this information till the time the user allow us to publish them.

Just to make it clear, a lackey name and VEKN ID (by default) is no personal data if no connection between a real user exist. And this will not happen at vtes-hook, at no time without permission! Also, a connection between a lackey name and an ID (eG VEKN ID) is no personal data (the connection to a real user is missing, what allow it, to name this "construct" as personal data). There is no personal information behind this. Vtes-hook will not create a connection like this without permission. Only self registered users can build this connection. And he can decide what he wants to publish and what not. This makes a page like this "so complex".
Beside: To publish a fictionary username and table result is no personal data.

We only use submitted data or data who are free to use. You can believe me I spend a lot of time to the user privacy, that is one of the reasons, why this project has one (or maybe the) biggest and complicates GDPR declaration of all pages who are involved with VTES. And I think I make a good job. ;-)

(I checked a lot of other pages, and most of them are using default settings.)

So I'm glad that someone is "asking for" this, so I get the chance to explain and show, how many works this was and will be.

Hope to get you the answers you are looking for, if not please let me know.

Prince of Wiesbaden, Germany
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30 Sep 2021 16:36 - 30 Sep 2021 22:29 #103402 by beslin igor
Hello Miller,
im very suprised by you comments about Hook page. I will tru give you answers.

/How does the rank presented in the www.vtes-hook.com relate to the official rankings of VEKN?/
Ranking in Hook collect only online events,and official rankings of VEKN collect standard constructed tournaments(before onli in real games,now there is counted online games too).

/The vtes-hook used to be an unofficial compilation of online gaming (namely in Lackey CCG) with no relation to the VEKN ranking system. Nonetheless, the recent times saw an increased number of sanctioned online tournaments and some of those were covered by the vtes-hook statistics (e.g. Atlantic Cup) while many others were not. In view of such approach that considers both unsanctioned online leagues and selected official tournaments in the same spreadsheet, what is the vtes-hook ranking/measuring at all?/
Yea,Hook is unofficial compilation of online gaming. There in online world ranking list is collected all online event of which we have complete results. if we dont have results events cannot be there. exist me topic in vekn page,and many fb pages where i call all organizers online events to collect his results in hook page.

/I must say I have strong reservations regarding the integrity of data compiled there. It seems to me that pre-2020 events are especially unverified, considering that online tournaments were not official yet and that the concern to make clear to all participants that the results would be later registered as part of an “online ranking” was not a constant at that time./
All online events pre-2020 were announced and the results were published,diferent pre-2020 and after is that whu vekn dont care about online events pre-2020 and later take care. ranking list in hook is always published from start,so everyone know how these results be rated in hook page.

/t is important to highlight the fact that many listed players in the vtes-hook database are identified solely by a Lackey CCG nickname, which may lead to several misrepresentations taking into account that a Lackey nickname is just what the name implies: a Lackey nickname. Therefore, it is not unusual that, at a certain point, a given player may have used/uses different nicknames (reflected as 2 different players in the vtes-hook statistics). Moreover, 2 or more different players may have used/use the same nickname (which leads to the results of different players being registered under the same entry)./
During this summer we in hook page worked to get unique acounts.

/ Hypothetically, I could report, for example, the results of an obscure league I played with some close friends in Lackey, informing only Lackey nicknames used at the time, and those results would be considered a source as valid as an official sanctioned event in the VEKN database./
I hope you or other people dont get permision for that if this league is not anounced somewhere,and if games not visible in lackey server. because this league can be fake. for now I claim how all events in hook page are played,no fake events.

/It all becomes more misleading when such results are used to build a parallel ranking (that can consider basically anything). When anything can be a valid input for a ranking (depending on the willingness of people to report), then that ranking has absolutely no meaning. It is not an academic discussion or a matter of believing in statistics or not, but of disagreeing with the methodology used to obtain the data in the specific statistics we are dealing here./
Does ranking ranking is valid or not,depends of people. for example some people dont care about official ranking in vekn page,but this ranking is anyway offcial. same can be here,some people care about ranking in hook page,but him is still unoffial(for now,maybe something can be changed in future),so all is how people look on it.

/Finally, I have some comments regarding privacy. You mentioned “We DO NOT collect real names, email or any other personal data without permission from an individual”. I assume you also consider the need of individual permission to collect the VEKN ID from a given player, since many of those VEKN IDs are linked to personal data. If that is not the case, I would strongly advise you to observe this routine. Ideally, players should be made aware that data regarding their participation in a given event will be further uploaded in the vtes-hook in addition to (in place of) the VEKN website./
I hope blackkn8 can more explain about that. only what i know about this is that how we respect GDRP in hook page. and generali players who play any events(ofline or online),they must give his main info. i always ask people to register them in me events for real names,his country,and that info is given in vekn site too,but i dont publish these info in hook page.
Last edit: 30 Sep 2021 22:29 by beslin igor.

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