file New set in 2012

28 Nov 2011 15:00 #16327 by Kushiel
Replied by Kushiel on topic Re: New set in 2012

Other than Robert Goudie issuing a press release and the Princes putting up a flyer, or otherwise announcing the information, at their LFGS, how and where else *could* the set be announced?


I've no idea.

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28 Nov 2011 18:56 - 28 Nov 2011 18:57 #16344 by johannes
Replied by johannes on topic Re: New set in 2012

Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future.

If they wanted a piece of the action, fine. Then we would be producing real VTES sets and pay it. But they want none of that.

This will be strictly in the "tolerated only" area, where they could potentially have legal grounds to stop us (even with PDF only) but they see no point if all they gain is annoyed and aggravated fans. But if there is any profit, they will shut it down for sure.
Last edit: 28 Nov 2011 18:57 by johannes.
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28 Nov 2011 21:19 - 28 Nov 2011 21:20 #16371 by echiang
Replied by echiang on topic Re: New set in 2012

Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future.

If they wanted a piece of the action, fine. Then we would be producing real VTES sets and pay it. But they want none of that.

This will be strictly in the "tolerated only" area, where they could potentially have legal grounds to stop us (even with PDF only) but they see no point if all they gain is annoyed and aggravated fans. But if there is any profit, they will shut it down for sure.

I agree with Johannes.

It seems like with this new set, only color printings slipped over an actual VTES card will be allowed (in a sleeve obviously).

In fact, it may be beneficial to expressly and explicitly prohibit players from using cards professionally printed on card stock (for those that don't like sleeves). As previously mentioned, this is likely to run afoul of the copyright and licensing issues. So if VEKN expressly prohibits such cards from being used, it gives VEKN greater credibility that it is respectful of the VTES license. (i.e. by VEKN "policing" the player community regarding licensing issues internally, it becomes less likely that WotC/CCP will feel motivated to heavy-handedily enforce their rights).

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Last edit: 28 Nov 2011 21:20 by echiang.
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28 Nov 2011 22:20 #16381 by Izaak
Replied by Izaak on topic Re: New set in 2012

Of course, if this falls foul of the current Licencing Agreements, then of course we can't do it. I have to say, I'm hoping that we could have such a product option, but I understand that Hasbro-WoTC & CCP-WW would want a piece of any potential profit action going on with VTES in the future.

If they wanted a piece of the action, fine. Then we would be producing real VTES sets and pay it. But they want none of that.

This will be strictly in the "tolerated only" area, where they could potentially have legal grounds to stop us (even with PDF only) but they see no point if all they gain is annoyed and aggravated fans. But if there is any profit, they will shut it down for sure.

I agree with Johannes.

It seems like with this new set, only color printings slipped over an actual VTES card will be allowed (in a sleeve obviously).

In fact, it may be beneficial to expressly and explicitly prohibit players from using cards professionally printed on card stock (for those that don't like sleeves). As previously mentioned, this is likely to run afoul of the copyright and licensing issues. So if VEKN expressly prohibits such cards from being used, it gives VEKN greater credibility that it is respectful of the VTES license. (i.e. by VEKN "policing" the player community regarding licensing issues internally, it becomes less likely that WotC/CCP will feel motivated to heavy-handedily enforce their rights).


I'm pretty sure there is 0% chance for me to get sued by CCP if I duplicate a VTES card in photoshop and have it printed on the exact same paper as a real VTES card in the local copyshop.

In fact, in this country it's actually legal to duplicate anything that's copyrighted for my own use and I'd be surprised if this wasn't actually a European Law. As soon as you start selling the things in any sort of noticable quantity and start making profit it's a different thing of course.

If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know), I'd make sure to have the new cards printed properly, without this "glue on VTES card" nonsense.

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28 Nov 2011 22:44 #16383 by Juggernaut1981
Replied by Juggernaut1981 on topic Re: New set in 2012

I'm pretty sure there is 0% chance for me to get sued by CCP if I duplicate a VTES card in photoshop and have it printed on the exact same paper as a real VTES card in the local copyshop.

In fact, in this country it's actually legal to duplicate anything that's copyrighted for my own use and I'd be surprised if this wasn't actually a European Law. As soon as you start selling the things in any sort of noticable quantity and start making profit it's a different thing of course.

If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know), I'd make sure to have the new cards printed properly, without this "glue on VTES card" nonsense.


There is a very small chance you will be directly sued; I agree with that. However, depending on the legal status of VEKN in its appropriate jursidictions (legal yada yada yada)... Johannes, the Inner Circle, the Design Team and the VEKN itself could potentially sued into bankruptcy (if the IP-holders get lawyer-nazi on our butts). So realistically, I wouldn't wish that on any of them...

Hence why I was checking that the understanding on any licence (if one exists) prohibits third parties gaining profit by the production of VTES cards (e.g. Artscow can't make money from printing them for example because that then represents an organised distribution of the products for profit on Artscow's behalf - even if VEKN won't make a cent)

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28 Nov 2011 22:49 - 28 Nov 2011 22:54 #16384 by echiang
Replied by echiang on topic Re: New set in 2012

I'm pretty sure there is 0% chance for me to get sued by CCP if I duplicate a VTES card in photoshop and have it printed on the exact same paper as a real VTES card in the local copyshop.

In fact, in this country it's actually legal to duplicate anything that's copyrighted for my own use and I'd be surprised if this wasn't actually a European Law. As soon as you start selling the things in any sort of noticable quantity and start making profit it's a different thing of course.

If I were to choose to continue playing V:TES after this fan-set is released (which seems unlikely, but you never know), I'd make sure to have the new cards printed properly, without this "glue on VTES card" nonsense.

The concern is *not* about individual players being sued by CCP. The concern is about WotC/CCP filing an injunction against *VEKN* and prevent VEKN from developing any further fan-based VEKN sets.

If you want to print out fancy versions of the new cards on quality card stock (heck, you can print out Villeins and Enkil Cogs), and use it for your local, casual games, that's one thing. But it's different when it comes to VEKN-sanctioned tournaments. There may be concerns about whether VEKN is "facilitating" or "aiding and abetting" copyright violations (performed by individual players) which can still incur liability. In many jurisdictions, if you provide materials that you know are likely to be used in an illegal manner, you may face some culpability (and are an easy target for law suits).

And even if such use might technically be permitted by a given country's laws, oftentimes it still might not be worth the hassle of potential legal action. Even if (hypothetically) a court might eventually rule in favor of VEKN, we certainly don't have the time and resources to deal with a protracted legal battle.

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Last edit: 28 Nov 2011 22:54 by echiang.

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