Which is the problem: blood creation or recursion?

Ankha wrote:

Con Boon could also be a trouble, but Ancilla Empowerement/Anarchist Uprising do the same amount of damage so they're ok.

Sometimes it happens that you get ridiculous amounts of pool by using Con Boon.

In the FCQ's 3rd round in Budapest at one point I had 50 pool and 10 small cap !Toreador out (Beckett adv had also made an appearance but some feral gals ate him up). 3 Con Boons and one Art Scam (kinda pointless after just getting 30 pool) in one turn kinda bloat you up nicely...


In the pic I already managed to spend one point to Lilith or paid one to see one etc

Ankha wrote:

Suoli wrote:

If a player has 30 pool and 4 big caps it means that a) someone brought a tournament deck to a casual game b) someone played badly or c) someone played well. What you are describing is not a standard mid game scenario.

Meaning that the meta game should reduce itself to 1/ play rush 2/ play heavy bleed 3/ play girls. It's a bit limited.
Vote decks and intercept decks won't be able to kill it, nor a ally or toolbox or even imbued.

I don't agree that rushing allies or good vote decks can't kill Girls. Toolboxes and Imbued, on the other hand, are currently not that viable against tier 1 decks anyway, with or without Girls.

The only problems I see with the deck type is that playing Liquidation and Ashurs can take up a lot of time and that everyone seems to be playing it.

Reyda wrote:

Now, when I sit at a table, it's not the same excitation anymore. Maybe something is gone ? But the things at stake are relatively different : some decks can propulse themselves so high on the pool curve, there is nothing you can do once it's started (except if said player suddenly starts to play like a monkey).

How can you go through 30 pool of a (new) prey with 4 vampires out ? And if he gains 10 more ? There is almost no deck that is designed to do 60 pool damage. Or at least one which is interesting to play. So that leads to discouragement.
"Yes, bleed me for 3, I will just villein/lilith the next vamp" ... 27 pool to go...
The problem is you cannot gang on those decks. You can try to slow them but eventually, you have to play the game. And because they are the one that shine when others are struggling to win the game, once there is a windows, they soar above the rest in terms of bloating.
As Bram Stoker said : "The blood is the life".

so where is the thrill of the beginning ?
It's not really the game I used to enjoy... But I still love it.

Do I have an idea for fixing this ? No.

I snipped to these comments because they make me think of another problem the game has had forever but which largely gets fixed or, at least, managed by the nature of the game and the desire of players to build decks to win tournaments.

Weenies.

It's the opposite problem to decks like Girls, Council of Doom, and the like. A good weenie deck (not to be confused with babymaker decks like Clown Car or Foundation Exhibit) will ensure that the prey dies, even though the weenie deck may never oust the player. Many of the decks with massive bloat are not all that fierce on offense. If you play conservatively, limited stealth and a small number of actions a turn can be handled.

Since it might not be clear, what I'm saying is that weenies are metagamed out because the table works to prevent them from turning the corner - it's a (relatively) high risk/reward strategy, while decks that are better at bloating than ousting are taking a relatively low risk/reward strategy.

Similarly, can always make a wall deck that is virtually unoustable (the zero risk/reward hypothetical perfect defense deck), but it's a poor choice when it doesn't oust anyone itself.

Just my view. I wouldn't give it much weight since I don't participate in the higher profile events around the world. I just wonder if decks that can easily gain massive amounts of pool fall out of favor if they struggle to oust opponents because the opponents play conservatively in much the same way that I don't expect a lot of weenie decks in a tournament because they can be too easily stopped at 1 or 2 VPs.

Ankha wrote:

Then the term would be 'recoup' rather than 'recurse'.
When you influence 11 pool on a vampire, this pool is stucked/invested and will ultimately disappear (to pay cards, or in combat etc.) but your pool level shouldn't go back in a short time (say 1 turn) to its initial level. Apart heavy bleed deck, no deck is capable of ousting prey(s) with 30 pool within 2 hours.
Heavy pool gain (such as Villein) means that decks will be un-oustable and will ultimately lead to time out.

Both myself, ICL and a few others have talked about "Pool Recursion" in the same way as "Card Recursion". You have spent the resource (Pool/Card) and then recycled it from its later location back to where you can use it again (Pool/Hand).

Classic Pool Recursion cards are (as the earlier posts mentioned) Minion Tap, Villein, Tribute to the Master, Blood Doll & Vessel.

Classic Blood Creation cards are Voter Cap, Renewed Vigor and Giant's Blood.